I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[The Hammer]

I believe that Isaiah 45:7 refers to fate and predestination and that prosperity and disaster are things that happen to us that are beyond our control.

In short, God is responsible for both the Good and the Bad things that happen to us, those things that are not subject to free will and thus are beyond our control.

So, while I agree with you and believe in Fate. I don't think it has anything to do with God (your version), and more to do with the Norns.

"In Völuspá, the Norns are mysterious beings who don’t seem to come from any of the recognized kinds of beings who populate the Norse otherworld. They seem to be a category unto themselves. There are exactly three of them, and their names suggest their ability to construct the content of time: one is Urd (Old Norse Urðr, “The Past,” and a common word for fate in and of itself), the second Verdandi (Old Norse Verðandi, “What Is Presently Coming into Being”) and the third Skuld (Old Norse Skuld, “What Shall Be”). They live in a hall by a well (Urðarbrunnr, “Well of Fate”) beneath Yggdrasil, the mighty tree at the center of the Norse otherworld, which holds the Nine Worlds in its branches and roots.[2] ...in the Norse view, fate was blind and utterly implacable. You couldn’t change it; all that was left to you was to decide the attitude with which you would meet whatever fate happened to bring."

The Norns - Norse Mythology for Smart People

 

[Trailblazer]

The core issue is that we cannot be held responsible for events that we have no control over.
If we have no control over an event (for whatever reason), then we cannot be held responsible for it.

That is what I said in my OP, God is responsible for both the Good and the Bad things that happen to us IF those things are predestined (fated).

Man is compelled to endure things that are beyond our control because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the things happen are beyond our control. That is our destiny, our fate, for which God is responsible.

However, everything that happens to us is not predestined by God, some of what happens is freely chosen, and we are responsible for what we freely choose. The entire justice system is predicated on free will. There could be no justice or accountability if there was no free choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

we cannot choose to do something that god doesn't already know we will choose.

The reason that God knows what we will choose is because God is all-knowing, but what God knows is not what causes us to choose what we choose. We choose it by virtue of our own will.

So whatever we end up choosing at any moment in time will be what God has always known from eternity that we will choose.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..we are responsible for what we freely choose. The entire justice system is predicated on free will. There could be no justice or accountability if there was no free choice.

That is correct.
People who argue that G-d knowing the future means we have no free-will are just "playing a game" .

They are really saying that there is no such G-d, because it is impossible for G-d to know the future unless we are automatons.
The thing is, the argument is illogical. It relies on trickery and word play.
We are not forced to choose what G-d knows. It relies on our perception of time to assume that something that is known "before we choose it" means we aren't choosing it.

A perception. It relies on a perception about the nature of time.
G-d is not part of our time-frame, hence the perception does not apply.

 

[John53]

Why would anyone worship this free will God? It knows a child abuser is going to abduct, torture and kill an innocent child but does not intervene because "free will". You're describing a monster who is as guilty as the person doing the evil act and I wonder what free will the child has.

 

[Trailblazer]

We are not forced to choose what G-d knows. It relies on our perception of time to assume that something that is known "before we choose it" means we aren't choosing it.

A perception. It relies on a perception about the nature of time.
G-d is not part of our time-frame, hence the perception does not apply.

Yes, it is all based on perception, or should I say MISPERCEPTION.

Since God does not exist in OUR time-frame, what God knows on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday does not apply to God.

God knows everything that will ever happen all the time (as we relate to time) and God has known everything from eternity...

 

[John53]

Yes, it is all based on perception, or should I say MISPERCEPTION.

Since God does not exist in OUR time-frame, what God knows on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday does not apply to God.

God knows everything that will ever happen all the time (as we relate to time) and God has known everything from eternity...

What a boring eternity! Spending all your time sitting around saying, "I knew that would happen".

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would anyone worship this free will God? It knows a child abuser is going to abduct, torture and kill an innocent child but does not intervene because "free will". You're describing a monster who is as guilty as the person doing the evil act and I wonder what free will the child has.

No, free will is not the reason that God does not intervene.
God does not intervene because that is not God's responsibility.
God is not responsible because God is not committing the evil act.
Only the person who commits the evil act is guilty.

Why do you think it would be God's responsibility to intervene every time something bad is about to happen? That would be taking responsibility away from humans who are responsible for doing bad things. They would still be bad and have an evil intent but they would never learn from their bad actions or be punished for them. Good people are rewarded for good deeds and bad people are punished for bad deeds. That is called justice and it is necessary to maintain order in the world.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings, p. 219

 

[Trailblazer]

What a boring eternity! Spending all your time sitting around saying, "I knew that would happen".

God can never be bored. Only humans can be bored because boredom is a uniquely human concept.
God us always busy ruling and maintaining the universe so God never runs out of things to do.

 

[John53]

No, free will is not the reason that God does not intervene.
God does not intervene because that is not God's responsibility.
God is not responsible because God is not committing the evil act.
Only the person who commits the evil act is guilty.

In my world those who stand by and do nothing to stop an evil act are as guilty as the perpetrator.

Why do you think it would be God's responsibility to intervene every time something bad is about to happen? That would be taking responsibility away from humans who are responsible for doing bad things. They would still be bad and have an evil intent but they would never learn from their bad actions or be punished for them. Good people are rewarded for good deeds and bad people are punished for bad deeds. That is called justice and it is necessary to maintain order in the world.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings, p. 219

Logic. If I knew harm was going to happen to a child I would do my damnedest to prevent it. Even if I thought the evil monster you describe existed I would not worship it.

 

[John53]

God can never be bored. Only humans can be bored because boredom is a uniquely human concept.
God us always busy ruling and maintaining the universe so God never runs out of things to do.

Animals get bored, especially domesticated pets.

 

[Trailblazer]

In my world those who stand by and do nothing to stop an evil act are as guilty as the perpetrator.

God is a not a human so God does not 'stand by.'
To expect God to do what a human being would do is the fallacy of false equivalence.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

Logic. If I knew harm was going to happen to a child I would do my damnedest to prevent it. Even if I thought the evil monster you describe existed I would not worship it.

But that is because you are a human being. God is not a human being.
There is a reason why atheists do not believe in God and lack of evidence is not the only reason.
Even if atheists had the evidence all atheists say they need to believe they would still not want to worship the God they believed exists since He would never do what they expected Him to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Animals get bored, especially domesticated pets.

Yes, animals can get bored just like humans, but God cannot get bored because God is not a human.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why would anyone worship this free will God? It knows a child abuser is going to abduct, torture and kill an innocent child but does not intervene because "free will". You're describing a monster who is as guilty as the person doing the evil act and I wonder what free will the child has.

Then we have Bible stories where God does intervene. Like he tells Lot and a few others to get out of town, but the rest of the people in the city were too evil to be redeemed and got blown up by God? And in Ukraine right now God is sparring some and having others blown up. But don't worry. It's part of his plan.

 

[John53]

Yes, animals can get bored just like humans, but God cannot get bored because God is not a human.

When he created us in his image it would have been nice if he threw in a few of the benefits.

 

[CG Didymus]

What a boring eternity! Spending all your time sitting around saying, "I knew that would happen".

Maybe it's like a video game to him? Then he tries to pretend he doesn't remember how things turn out, and he zaps people and sends disasters to see what people will do? And in God years, he might only be a teenager.

 

[John53]

Then we have Bible stories where God does intervene. Like he tells Lot and a few others to get out of town, but the rest of the people in the city were too evil to be redeemed and got blown up by God? And in Ukraine right now God is sparring some and having others blown up. But don't worry. It's part of his plan.

The secret seems to be that you need to pray to a particular god in a particular place for him to intervene and answer your prayers and save you.

 

[Trailblazer]

When he created us in his image it would have been nice if he threw in a few of the benefits.

Like what?

 

[John53]

Like what?

Not being easily bored

 

[Trailblazer]

Not being easily bored

There is a simple solution to that.... just get busy.
I cannot remember ever being bored, my problem is having enough time.
Then again I have a job, 8 cats and 3 houses, and a husband who expects me to do almost everything.