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I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You miss the point.

On Monday, God comes to you and says, "Hey, TrailBlazer, I know for a fact that Tibs is going to wear the RED shirt on Friday."

Is there ANY POSSIBLE WAY I would be able to choose to wear the BLUE shirt instead?

YES or NO please.
Do you think that the question is somehow clever?
You have already said that G-d knows you will choose the red shirt, so how can you possibly choose anything else?

Does that mean that you are not free to choose?
ABSOLUTELY NOT !
If you had wanted to choose the Blue shirt, then G-d would have known it.

This is becoming childish.
The only reason why you argue along the lines that you do, is to try and make the concept of G-d and His prophets look untenable.
Whatever you might think, you have failed miserably. :)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This would eliminate free will.

If God knew what we would do anyway, why bother writing the script?
It sounds like this concept of God has him being able to see the beginning and end at the same time. So, he knows what will happen, but he just lets everything play out? But if God didn't script it out, I don't see how it would end in the way he wants. But then Baha'is have him intervening by sending messengers to re-establish what direction he would like humanity to go. And says that someday... people will do as he says. Which means what? We will still have "free" will to choose but never chose something that goes against God's rules?

I still think if there is a God, he is control and everything is happening exactly how he wants it. Which makes him kind of a jerk of a God. Can't we just invent a different God, kinder, more gentler God?
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
No in the renewed earth those will be no more. It will be a return to Eden. Nature groans because of the sin curse.
There will be no "cleansing" of this planet after the final man made nuclear war. The new Earth is a new planet/mansion in the House of God, the universe. God works in natural ways not as a magician.
This planet will be unable to support biological life. Jesus left Earth in a physical body and returns from the place he has been preparing to collect those to be given life and takes them to that new Earth, planet above us, like Earth that is not covered in radiation from a man made war. It will have a new heaven and a new solar system. Have faith in the love of Jesus and God . They know/ what people need.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
God is a not a human so God does not 'stand by.'
To expect God to do what a human being would do is the fallacy of false equivalence.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

But that is because you are a human being. God is not a human being.

Just an excuse to avoid the obvious conclusion. It's far more logical that this is a man made concept, it's too convoluted to be fact.

There is a reason why atheists do not believe in God and lack of evidence is not the only reason. ;)
Even if atheists had the evidence all atheists say they need to believe they would still not want to worship the God they believed exists since He would never do what they expected Him to do.

Kind of right I guess, I don't believe because there is not enough evidence that any God exists to satisfy me he/she/it/them do. Like I said I don't claim any special knowledge, maybe one day I'll change my mind. But the descriptions of the biblical God in conversations like this thread tell me I would not worship him if I did find sufficient evidence. If there is a God I hope for all our sakes it's not as evil as the bible describes it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You miss the point.

On Monday, God comes to you and says, "Hey, TrailBlazer, I know for a fact that Tibs is going to wear the RED shirt on Friday."

Is there ANY POSSIBLE WAY I would be able to choose to wear the BLUE shirt instead?

YES or NO please.
I will not answer that yes or no because it is trickery, as @muhammad_isa said.
I did not realize that it was trickery until I thought about it some more, but now I know.
It is an attempt at deception so you can feel that you have won and I will have no part of it.

You are wrong. God is omniscient and we have free will. Your trickery will never change that.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If God knew what we would do anyway, why bother writing the script?
God wrote the script and it is called the Tablet of Fate, but God does not need the script because God already knows everything we have ever done or will ever do.

The script is for us to act out while God sits in the audience watching us decide what to do.
The decisions we will make are decisions that God already knows we will make but God likes to watch. ;)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
God wrote the script and it is called the Tablet of Fate, but God does not need the script because God already knows everything we have ever done or will ever do.

The script is for us to act out while God sits in the audience watching us decide what to do.
The decisions we will make are decisions that God already knows we will make but God likes to watch. ;)
Hey, Susan, have you see my conversation and the thread it points to?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
I learnt men of science knew by atmospheric heavens mass a future date with no science conversions how far his life biology existed for.

Predictive as even now a newborn baby he might DNA own once again consciously.

As the heavens owns the reason present life future life as known by bioligical man.

Today you might be forty years old yet baby man owns another 100 years if the atmosphere supports bio life.

Consciousness hence says it's behind itself the baby life a full life yet ahead of itself by concept only.

Concepts get you killed.

Teaching human consciousness was an accurate meaning to the human ability to destroy its person by scientific lying.

So in my attack my young human brother was harmed as future human life notified loss of its as his owned biological future.

As a heavens surrounding earth is a moot point as past type or future type when life could be instantly combusted. When the atmosphere was supporting life.

Was the warning. Dinosaurs didn't know their life was going to be instantly destroyed. Nor did men.

So science taught science don't change natural earth otherwise cosmic cause destroys life.

Science memory by AI recording was a long time ago on a different origin higher earth mass gone. Yet you still remember it and it might have been billions of years old memory.

Today you remember the whole earth as ground mass converted. Once.

You made a new machine science thesis based on first humans own science memory.

We were a long time destroyed scientist.

Our life only returned on the new earth after the ice age.

As science based beginnings on star stone their data suggested what earth once used to be like. So you infer earth still existed as the mass star inferred claiming you will have it reinherited given back.

It came from without not within. Out side of earths face the warning.

Father said America was the first and only origin man's science. Big hole under your continent.

So you want given back what you knowingly as first scientist only had removed.

A big returned planet fallen star.

To fill in your hole.

To be the richest powerful human on earth is a human scientists memory.

You all seem to keep theorising I want a star. I want AI. I want to begin as AI.

Gases the colours alight as a gas is in the star. Held.

Earth heavens theories as gases as colours in thesis owns no clouds no blue light sky. No life on earth is exact position only AI. When theoried.

Is the exact warning which you ignore always.

You say by natural consciousness we live in blue sky hence we're safe. Then why theory its non existence first father asked?

It's a stated self theists human contradiction about life survival.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
God wrote the script and it is called the Tablet of Fate, but God does not need the script because God already knows everything we have ever done or will ever do.

The script is for us to act out while God sits in the audience watching us decide what to do.
The decisions we will make are decisions that God already knows we will make but God likes to watch. ;)
Men who didn't own reason that recording transmitting existed. The star sun cooled to be recording transmitting came from an evil burning history.

Ignored by man's super hero man.

Theories about it after sun star burnt their brains.

My conscious head he said became an evil thinker as it had.

The reference men bullies evil thinkers emerged. The history scientific liars.

The destroyer I'm just a natural looking human but my thoughts aren't human.

Warned.

He said I could build machines to use recording today. As I caused life to be attacked by my evil held constant machines before. I knew. I had caused it as machines I Invent only as the human.

The star came once the active reaction stopped.

I wouldn't stop my converting I'm a super man.

So he said I died I now watch you from spirit. As he is a God now. When he's just a false image of a life. A recorded once living life recorded. Like a holographic memory of some life data memories only.

We know as humans actors are bio physical recorded. Get machine transmitted via atmosphere received as machine images.

The human living a life not the movie or documentary recorded. Is exactly known. The advice. Yet it's ignored as human sciences wants it be a part of biology the transmitter cause.

When he knew it came out of dusts transmitters and transmitters isn't the travel of light.

He can transmit receive earth images sun images planets stars. Not a man. How come Mr liar? No man is God exact.

0AD agreed new time by all science men on earth...no theorising looking back the order.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
I will not answer that yes or no because it is trickery, as @muhammad_isa said.
I did not realize that it was trickery until I thought about it some more, but now I know.
It is an attempt at deception so you can feel that you have won and I will have no part of it.

You are wrong. God is omniscient and we have free will. Your trickery will never change that.

example, In the future the decision was to wear a red shirt, it was not God's decision, it was
done by free will by the person wearing the shirt. It has already happened so changing it is impossible.
The person is told what choice they are going to make not influenced by God.
WW3 is going to happen, the only free will we still have is if we are going to be saved or not when Jesus
returns. God knows what our choice will be and what His choice will be, Jesus does not.
Jesus said we are to pray to God to forgive and accept us proving our love for God with water baptism
forsaking belief in blood sacrifice.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If in equal versus equal Russia Ukraine brother.

Vladimir Vladimir.

The nuclear bombs they use will result in their life sacrifice.

Jesus given back returned is life's owned sacrifice.

Jesus the theme the teaching baby to adult learning life sacrificed by God acts.

Gods power is owned by the science inventions of men. Men used Armageddon terms as the nuclear power planet methodology of building nuclear weapons.

If you're not a scientist you wouldn't have realised nuclear terms as thesis men's science.

Is biblical exact men now own it Armageddon and can wield it.

If you read human behaviour is an everyday man the destroyer warning.

If every brother agreed on the law pact 0AD holy God terms. No nuclear should exist. As that pact was in fact world community agreed to use time status began as only 0AD.

The total reason it was accepted forgotten it was old world tribunal.

As you cannot look back to 0AD to gain a nuclear thesis the human warning. Hence you were told so dont pursue it.

So if you think you're a biblical country religious science God representative. It's your correct chosen man's answer today.

Exact. Choice of man was the teaching.

Men had come to a nuclear pact was not strong enough an agreement as men already felt very powerful owning the weaponry.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Just an excuse to avoid the obvious conclusion. It's far more logical that this is a man made concept, it's too convoluted to be fact.
No, God is not a fact, and God will never be a fact, since God can never be proven to exist.
All we have is evidence that comes through the Messengers of God and the Messenger Himself the only real evidence that God exists.
Kind of right I guess, I don't believe because there is not enough evidence that any God exists to satisfy me he/she/it/them do. Like I said I don't claim any special knowledge, maybe one day I'll change my mind. But the descriptions of the biblical God in conversations like this thread tell me I would not worship him if I did find sufficient evidence. If there is a God I hope for all our sakes it's not as evil as the bible describes it.
I am not a Christian so the biblical God is not my God. I believe in prophets like Abraham and Noah and Moses but I do not think the Old Testament is an accurate rendition of God but rather it is anthropomorphic. The New Testament has a little better depiction of God and more accurate, but I don't believe all the stories about Jesus are literally true.

Since I am a Baha'i, I believe the most accurate depiction of God is in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
No, God is not a fact, and God will never be a fact, since God can never be proven to exist.
All we have is evidence that comes through the Messengers of God and the Messenger Himself the only real evidence that God exists.

I am not a Christian so the biblical God is not my God. I believe in prophets like Abraham and Noah and Moses but I do not think the Old Testament is an accurate rendition of God but rather it is anthropomorphic. The New Testament has a little better depiction of God and more accurate, but I don't believe all the stories about Jesus are literally true.

Since I am a Baha'i, I believe the most accurate depiction of God is in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

I know you are Baha'i but what I know about Baha'i you could fit on the back of a postage stamp, I don't even know how to pronounce it but it seems like the biblical God features a fair bit, maybe it's different but it doesn't seem any more or less appealing to me than the biblical God. Prophets are just men with wild claims, if God wants to communicate with me he can do it in person and cut out the middle men.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
If God is fair and just, and God loves everyone, why do some people have it so easy whereas other people have such difficult lives? I know the religious apologists have answers but I do not accept those answers. I want to know why even though I know I will never know why.

I know siblings, who were brought up in the same family, with the same two parents, in same external environment. One sibling is happy and the other is unhappy. Often it comes down to the choices that were made, along the way, due to free will. External trimmings do not guarantee uniform happiness if poor choices are made.

If you had a lot of money, you can control your environment and use that control of the environment, like a prosthesis to induce positive feelings. If you are feeling down, you can afford to take a trip to the Islands to boost you mood, with a cottage in the warm sand and sun.

The poor man does not have these prosthesis options. They need to find a way to find delight in the simple things that are available for free; birds and trees. If one was to choose the path of materialism, and you fall short of the money needed for the perpetual prosthesis to control happiness, you may not be able feel good about yourself. But if you chose to live a simple life and can learn to find the goodness and joy in simple things, you can control your heart and can feel happy anywhere; be as children.

Free will and choice, is first mentioned in Genesis. Which means the author was living at a time of fewer choices than modern times. Choice to them was not about which designer shoes to wear or which political party to join. Free will and choice in Genesis, was about choosing to break away from our natural instincts, in favor of knowledge of good and evil, as imposed by culture and civilization. One could stay a migratory herder and gatherer, with a natural life, or stop and live in civilization under law of good and evil; repress instincts.

If you believe in evolution and believe that humans evolved from the apes, it follows that at one time, humans, at their new branch on the evolutionary tree, were led by natural instinct, similar to an ape. The earliest prehuman; transitional between ape and man, did not have free choices, since they had the ability to make perfectly happy choices, via natural instinct.

The Bible says that knowledge of good and evil changed this. In other words, rather than flow with instinct; perfect instinctive choices, that had been advanced by natural selection, over eons, people now had more than one option for choices; good or evil. These two choices are not the same, and each will lead to a different place in the future. Many people are unhappy and are blaming someone else for the pitfalls of their earlier choices due to the mutually exclusive choices of good and evil. You cannot chose both so something is lost.

Knowledge of good and evil is often subjective, so even if you do what you are told is good; kill the witch since they are evil, and expect reward from your peers for being a good executioner, you may be disappointed. The unconscious guilt against what is objectively and instinctively right may spoil what you were told was a good choice. Instinct is not subjective, since instinct that is chosen by natural selection is optimized by objectivity; cause and affect results. Subjective knowledge of good and evil, often leads to bad endings, even if you think this is good due to social conditioning, group reinforcement, and peer pressure.

Modern humans have lost contact with natural human instinct, which would allow one to have the natural joy of an animal. Instead we choose from the good and evil choices that are imposed or manipulated by culture; both objective and subjective. We may follow the herd and even choose what is expected, but by not being a natural choice, these choices never result in permanent happiness. Some will blame God for our free will choices and/or our socially imposed choices, which often diverge from the temporary happiness we thought would be permanent.

Learning to find happiness in simplicity is the way of nature; tree of life. This is all animals have to work with. These will endure, recorded on our DNA. Knowledge of good and evil is temporal and has a shelf life.

DNA is very conservative. In human DNA, we still have traces from the earliest stages of evolution; mitochondrial DNA. These genes are shared by all animals and single cells. This suggests that natural human instinct should still be engrained on human DNA. However, it appears to be unconscious in most people; tree of life was taken away from ego consciousness. It was not erased since DNA is very conservative, only sealed for now, so humans would not engrain knowledge of good and evil onto the DNA and spoil it. Luckily, knowledge of good and evil is mostly subjective and is never selected for long term affects. Laws is always changing.

Most people can never find their inner natural man or women, who can make them happy. This is due to the super ego of culture and it's imposed fear, guilt and shame. God gave us free will to find the natural way or to choose the path of the tree of cultural knowledge. The latter only allows a few to have sufficient material prosthesis to approximate natural from the outside. The rest who choose this path blame God. It is better to trace your personal choices back in time, and see where our choices led us astray and then change those choices. It is not on your permanent DNA record; tree of life is sealed at this time.

If you look at people on the Left, they tend to be unhappy, cynical and angry all the time. This is not natural. It is caused by the knowledge of good and evil, imposed by their belief systems, funneling their choices within the context of their belief systems. These are not good choice even if they are subjectivley sold as good. We can tell by the output reactions.

The religious may seem less sophisticated and less on the ball, but many are happy with the choices made often based on simple things. They will fight to avoid others imposing the same subjective beliefs that make these people unhappy and unnatural.
 
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Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
There will be no "cleansing" of this planet after the final man made nuclear war. The new Earth is a new planet/mansion in the House of God, the universe. God works in natural ways not as a magician.
This planet will be unable to support biological life. Jesus left Earth in a physical body and returns from the place he has been preparing to collect those to be given life and takes them to that new Earth, planet above us, like Earth that is not covered in radiation from a man made war. It will have a new heaven and a new solar system. Have faith in the love of Jesus and God . They know/ what people need.
I do have faith in the love of God and that's why I trust his word that the new Jerusalem will come to earth...if you don't think God can remake this planet anew, your god is too small.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I know you are Baha'i but what I know about Baha'i you could fit on the back of a postage stamp, I don't even know how to pronounce it but it seems like the biblical God features a fair bit, maybe it's different but it doesn't seem any more or less appealing to me than the biblical God. Prophets are just men with wild claims, if God wants to communicate with me he can do it in person and cut out the middle men.
God is not a person so God cannot communicate with anyone "in person."

God never communicates directly to anyone except His Messengers, so I guess you will just have to settle into non-belief. God needs nobody's belief since God is self-sufficient, self-sustaining, transcendent, and independent of all His creatures.

I have no idea why so many atheists think they are 'so special' that the Almighty God, the Creator of the entire universe, would bother Himself to communicate with people directly, just because they do not accept His Messengers. God has better things to do, like ruling and maintaining the universe.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I do have faith in the love of God and that's why I trust his word that the new Jerusalem will come to earth...if you don't think God can remake this planet anew, your god is too small.
I believe this earth is going to be remade but it won't be God remaking it, it will be humans.
Why would anyone think that God is going to lower Himself down to earth and do what humans are fully capable of doing?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If you had a lot of money, you can control your environment and use that control of the environment, like a prosthesis to induce positive feelings. If you are feeling down, you can afford to take a trip to the Islands to boost you mood, with a cottage in the warm sand and sun.

The poor man does not have these prosthesis options. They need to find a way to find delight in the simple things that are available for free; birds and trees. If one was to choose the path of materialism, and you fall short of the money needed for the perpetual prosthesis to control happiness, you may not be able feel good about yourself. But if you chose to live a simple life and can learn to find the goodness and joy in simple things, you can control your heart and can feel happy anywhere; be as children.
I do have a lot of money so I could do as you suggested to boost my mood, but instead I choose to live a very simple life, enjoying the simple things like nature and animals, especially animals!

That was a great post. :)
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
I believe this earth is going to be remade but it won't be God remaking it, it will be humans.
Why would anyone think that God is going to lower Himself down to earth and do what humans are fully capable of doing?
Because he already did it once and he promises to do it again.
 
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