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I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I said:
God is not a person so God cannot communicate with anyone "in person."
I did not say that God cannot communicate with anyone.

I read this and didn't understand it so took the dog for her morning walk before replying but it didn't help. Whatever it means you're still saying there's something he can't do.

Why would God ever need an excuse for not doing what you expect Him to do?
Why would/should God do what atheists expect Him to do?
That is what atheists should be asking themselves. "I want God to x" is not a reason for God to do x.

I wasn't saying God needs excuses, I don't believe any Gods exist. I'm saying followers need excuses to justify their beliefs.

Anyway here's the Karuah River from this mornings walk, foggy and very dirty from the recent flooding but still beautiful and more godlike than any god I've ever heard about. It provides life. Pity us humans are doing our best to kill it. The dog knocked my walking stick onto the rocks below me when I was taking this, luckily it didn't go in the water and I could reach it or I'd still be there lol.

river.jpg
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Okay, but why should God communicate directly to people just because they want Him to?
No one is telling you that God should communicate to people just because they want him to. You keep repeatedly misrepresenting people by trying to claim it is about want. You know better. I guess you just don't care.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I read this and didn't understand it so took the dog for her morning walk before replying but it didn't help. Whatever it means you're still saying there's something he can't do.
There are things that God cannot do. For example, God cannot become a man because in that case God would not be God anymore. God cannot show up "in person" because God is not a person.
I wasn't saying God needs excuses, I don't believe any Gods exist. I'm saying followers need excuses to justify their beliefs.
Then what about this?
You said: So back to the he can but he doesn't excuse.
That sounds like you are saying that God needs an excuse fro what He doesn't do, not that believers need excuses.
Or maybe you are saying that believers need excuses for what we believe about what God does not do?
Anyway here's the Karuah River from this mornings walk, foggy and very dirty from the recent flooding but still beautiful and more godlike than any god I've ever heard about. It provides life. Pity us humans are doing our best to kill it. The dog knocked my walking stick onto the rocks below me when I was taking this, luckily it didn't go in the water and I could reach it or I'd still be there lol.

View attachment 61452
That's beautiful. I sure wish I could be there. Where you live in Australia is kind of my dreamland. The birds you have are just awesome. :)
It is beautiful here where I live too but I don't have a working camera so I cannot take any pictures. The trees here are so tall you cannot see up to the tops. Often I walk at night carrying my bike light and look up at the trees in awe.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No one is telling you that God should communicate to people just because they want him to. You keep repeatedly misrepresenting people by trying to claim it is about want. You know better. I guess you just don't care.
No, I do not know better because on atheist has ever given me a reason why God 'should' communicate directly to people (other than that is what they want God to do) and I have been posting to atheists for eight years.

If it is not about want then give me another reason why God 'should' communicate directly to people.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
There are things that God cannot do. For example, God cannot become a man because in that case God would not be God anymore. God cannot show up "in person" because God is not a person.

I'm not sure what I said but I meant if he has a message for me he can communicate it to me directly, I don't trust middle me with claims of messages from the one true god. Hopefully that clears up the confusion.

Then what about this?
You said: So back to the he can but he doesn't excuse.
That sounds like you are saying that God needs an excuse fro what He doesn't do, not that believers need excuses.
Or maybe you are saying that believers need excuses for what we believe about what God does not do?

I meant the "he can but he doesn't excuse" used by theists, I thought that was obvious but the only obvious thing seems to be I need to work on my communication skills.

That's beautiful. I sure wish I could be there. Where you live in Australia is kind of my dreamland. The birds you have are just awesome. :)
It is beautiful here where I live too but I don't have a working camera so I cannot take any pictures. The trees here are so tall you cannot see up to the tops. Often I walk at night carrying my bike light and look up at the trees in awe.

Nature is amazing.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
No, I do not know better because on atheist has ever given me a reason why God 'should' communicate directly to people (other than that is what they want God to do) and I have been posting to atheists for eight years.
Sure we have. You just misrepresent what we say by shoving in "want".

If it is not about want then give me another reason why God 'should' communicate directly to people.
No. You do not get to constantly misrepresent people, and then demand that your subreption be demonstrated to be false to your satisfaction. You should simply acknowledge that it is an assumption that you have made...in haste.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
I believe that all those verses are symbolic, not literal, so I do not believe they refer to an actual city.

The City of God revers to the Word of God, which is renewed in every age.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

I believe that the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, refers to the new Law of God that came by way of Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.

In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. ”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
Well I don't believe anything baha says so I don't have that issue.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
The New Jerusalem is the heavenly City. And I don't have to envision it because it's written.
16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick. 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Heavenly City is symbolic and it is presented in the Bible & Jesus tells us sons of Abraham lie like their father. In death there is no light and no night, a gate can not be shut if there is no one alive to shut it. There is no temple because it has been destroyed all left is the past concept of a Lord God and a Lamb. A grave does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it because there is no one alive to view it and all that is left of the dead is their past hope of an afterlife. This is the destruction of all nations that fought in glory and honor of their governments and beliefs. Once a person has died it is impossible for them to sin. Nothing impure can enter death because death is resolute accepting the innocent as well as evil so is not judgemental
The Lamb that needed salvation, the LOST sheep is Abraham (and his sons) that invented Lord God. Those that follow a lost religion have no book of life other than one that leads to permanent death with no light of GOD in it.
God is not Lord God and the Savior is the Shepherd not the Lamb.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Heavenly City is symbolic and it is presented in the Bible & Jesus tells us sons of Abraham lie like their father. In death there is no light and no night, a gate can not be shut if there is no one alive to shut it. There is no temple because it has been destroyed all left is the past concept of a Lord God and a Lamb. A grave does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it because there is no one alive to view it and all that is left of the dead is their past hope of an afterlife. This is the destruction of all nations that fought in glory and honor of their governments and beliefs. Once a person has died it is impossible for them to sin. Nothing impure can enter death because death is resolute accepting the innocent as well as evil so is not judgemental
The Lamb that needed salvation, the LOST sheep is Abraham (and his sons) that invented Lord God. Those that follow a lost religion have no book of life other than one that leads to permanent death with no light of GOD in it.
God is not Lord God and the Savior is the Shepherd not the Lamb.
Jesus' words:

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Heaven is a real place and that it is the dwelling place of God. Nineteen times Jesus made reference to God the Father dwelling in Heaven.
 

Triumph

FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Jesus' words:

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Heaven is a real place and that it is the dwelling place of God. Nineteen times Jesus made reference to God the Father dwelling in Heaven.
Jesus' words:

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Heaven is a real place and that it is the dwelling place of God. Nineteen times Jesus made reference to God the Father dwelling in Heaven.

Have faith in those quotes! The Bible tells us there are Heavens=plural, not just one. And yes, Heaven is a real place.
The Universe is the House of God and men can not contain it, define it, nor envelope it.
In the Universe are many planets = mansions that can contain biological life having water, a sun, plants etc. to create an atmosphere, breathable air, as described in Genesis chapter 1= Heaven, a place where birds can fly which means breathable air that keeps biological life alive.
Heaven is not an elaborate bejeweled free shopping mall with gold streets.
Jesus Left Earth to prepare a place = a particular position or point in space, so that place is NOT on Earth.
Jesus will return to Earth to take his followers to that new planet like Earth because WW3 destroys this one causing a collapse of the ecology removing any chance of survival as Nuclear Winter freezes even the oceans solid.
Jeremiah 50:39
Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell there, and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation."
This prophet tells us of the 2 sides that comprise the final war, WW3. War= the Beast over religion caused by the desert nations and war with China over ownership of islands in the South China Sea.
The dead will dwell there, the "owls" represent flesh eating night predators which also could represent radiation that destroys flesh. No life can ever be established there again because nuclear fission corium is self sustaining and grows as it releases unstoppable radiation for thousands of years taking what was our heaven, the place birds fly, by force because man will not be able to stop it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm not sure what I said but I meant if he has a message for me he can communicate it to me directly, I don't trust middle me with claims of messages from the one true god. Hopefully that clears up the confusion.
I thought that was what you meant so I wasn't confused. Most atheists say the same thing about trusting middlemen, and many say they want God to communicate to them directly. All I do is explain why I believe that is never going to happen and why it won't.
I meant the "he can but he doesn't excuse" used by theists, I thought that was obvious but the only obvious thing seems to be I need to work on my communication skills.
I do not view that as an excuse used by theists. If God exists it is obvious that God does not communicate directly to ordinary humans, so we are just telling you what you already know. Why would believers an excuse for what God doesn't do? It's not our fault.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sure we have. You just misrepresent what we say by shoving in "want".
No atheist has ever given me any other reason.
No. You do not get to constantly misrepresent people, and then demand that your subreption be demonstrated to be false to your satisfaction. You should simply acknowledge that it is an assumption that you have made...in haste.
That is about the finest piece of deflection I have ever seen.
You cannot answer my question, so you deflect.... a typical atheist ploy.
This is not my first rodeo.

If it is not about want then give me another reason why God 'should' communicate directly to people. If you cannot give me another reason that will mean there is no other reason.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I thought that was what you meant so I wasn't confused. Most atheists say the same thing about trusting middlemen, and many say they want God to communicate to them directly. All I do is explain why I believe that is never going to happen and why it won't.

I do not view that as an excuse used by theists. If God exists it is obvious that God does not communicate directly to ordinary humans, so we are just telling you what you already know. Why would believers an excuse for what God doesn't do? It's not our fault.

I wouldn't presume to know what drives theists to make what to me sound like excuses, nor do I think all theists do it. All I can go on is my experience as a theist and I used those type of excuses to myself because of my own doubts.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I wouldn't presume to know what drives theists to make what to me sound like excuses, nor do I think all theists do it. All I can go on is my experience as a theist and I used those type of excuses to myself because of my own doubts.
I do not know what excuses you are referring to. :confused:
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Do you think that the question is somehow clever?
You have already said that G-d knows you will choose the red shirt, so how can you possibly choose anything else?

Does that mean that you are not free to choose?
ABSOLUTELY NOT !
If you had wanted to choose the Blue shirt, then G-d would have known it.

This is becoming childish.
The only reason why you argue along the lines that you do, is to try and make the concept of G-d and His prophets look untenable.
Whatever you might think, you have failed miserably. :)

It takes a special kind of logic to say in one breath, "God knows what you will choose, so you can't choose anything else," to saying in the next breath, "You are still completely free to choose."
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I will not answer that yes or no because it is trickery, as @muhammad_isa said.
I did not realize that it was trickery until I thought about it some more, but now I know.
It is an attempt at deception so you can feel that you have won and I will have no part of it.

You are wrong. God is omniscient and we have free will. Your trickery will never change that.

It is not trickery. It's a simple point of logic that stops you from having your cake and eating it too, despite your insistence that you can.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
God wrote the script and it is called the Tablet of Fate, but God does not need the script because God already knows everything we have ever done or will ever do.

The script is for us to act out while God sits in the audience watching us decide what to do.
The decisions we will make are decisions that God already knows we will make but God likes to watch. ;)

What's the point of the script?

It's not for us: I've never seen it, I bet you haven't seen it either, and in any case, we'd do whatever we do with or without it.

It's not for God, since he knew what we would do even if it didn't exist. The existence of the script doesn't lock it in, since it was locked in the instant God knew what we'd do, and that was before the script.

Sounds to me like it's a McGuffin.
 
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