Why Jesus must be the Messiah

[Ebionite]

Abe and Melchizedek sacrifice of Bread and Wine to the Most HIgh God .. .. fancy that. some 800 years later .. when the hero of our Lineage Story - KIng David takes Jerusalem -- the name of the Canaanite King is Adoni -Zedek "My Lord is Zedek" Same Patron God.

No sacrifice.

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high El.
Genesis 14:18

Matthew 9​
13	But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Hosea 6​
6	For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.

 

[Ebionite]

the one who did not come to his rescue from being a human sacrifice .. .. like he did for Issac

No, he was rescued.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8

For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I.
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."
The Apocalypse of Peter

You hear that I suffered, yet I suffered not; and that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; and that I was pierced , yet I was not wounded; that I was hanged, yet I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me; yet it did not flow, and, in a word, that what they say of me, I did not endure, but what they do not say, those things I did suffer.
The Mystery of the Cross, from the Acts of John.

That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah' -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not -- nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself.
The Qur'an, Surah 4:157-158

 

[Sargonski]

No, he was rescued.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8

For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I.
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."
The Apocalypse of Peter

You hear that I suffered, yet I suffered not; and that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; and that I was pierced , yet I was not wounded; that I was hanged, yet I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me; yet it did not flow, and, in a word, that what they say of me, I did not endure, but what they do not say, those things I did suffer.
The Mystery of the Cross, from the Acts of John.

That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah' -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not -- nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself.
The Qur'an, Surah 4:157-158

Yes my Son .. just as there are Traditions where Isaac is rescued .. there are Traditions where HeyZeus is rescued .. crying out defacto that this is the case is a problem .. and secondly ... regardless of what actually happened .. I am coming from the Perspective someone who believes in the Death .. not myself personally .. but from that perspective.

The third problem .. is that you failed to acknowledge or address the main points of my Sermon .. 1) who is the God of Jesus ? 2) Jesus is a Priest of the Most High (who's identity you are now trying to figure out) .. Jesus is NOT - the most High

and there are more but starting with these two .. you may now proceed to address 1 and 2. (the sacrifice comes later but not yet at that level of enlightment) .. and notice that I used Canonical Scripture .. to support my claims .. which is of huge importance .. as the adherent can not cry out "Thats not Canonical" "Thats not in the Bible"

 

[Trailblazer]

No, he was rescued.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8

Why do you think that verse applies to Jesus?
Read Isaiah 53. Jews believe it is about Israel, Christians believe it is about Jesus, and Baha’is believe it is about Baha’u’llah. You have to read the whole chapter and each verse to determine what or who it is about.

Christians and Baha’is believe Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah but only some verses could apply to Jesus whereas all the verses can be applied to Baha’u’llah. Logically speaking then, we know that chapter cannot be about Jesus.

Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men. Certainly, Isaiah 53:4, Isaiah 53:5, and Isaiah 53:8 could apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:9 and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

 

[Link]

Peace

This is what I believe about descent of Isa (a):

Haroun (a) - Samuel (a) son of Haroun (a) - Talut (a) son of Samuel (a) - Dawood (a) son of Talut (a) - Solaiman (a) son of Dawood (a) - Elyas (a) son of Solaiman (a) - Alyasa (a) son of Elyas (a) - Dul-Kifl (a) son of Alyasa (a) - Imran (a) son of Dul-Kifl (a) - Mariam (a) daughter of Imran (a) - Isa (a) son of Mariam (a).

This is what I believe about succession of Isa (a):

Musa (a) - Haroun (a) brother of Musa (a) - Samuel (a) son of Haroun (a) - Talut (a) son of Samuel (a) - Dawood (a) son of Talut (a) - Solaiman (a) son of Dawood (a) - Elyas (a) son of Solaiman (a) - Alyasa (a) son of Elyas (a) - Dul-Kifl (a) son of Alyasa (a) - Imran (a) son of Dul-Kifl (a) - Zakariya (a) brother of Imran (a) - Yahya (a) son of Zakariya (a) - Isa (a) cousin of Yahya (a).

Note: Uzair (a) is a highly pious scholar, but not a chosen leader from God.

 

[metis]

"Essense" is used for God.

From the Nicene Creed:
God from God, light from light, true God from true God.

The concept of "essence" was used in the formation of the Nicene Creed in the 4th century; thus, Jesus was and is considered to be of the "essence" of God. Since both have different names, and since Jesus often prayed to God, how could Jesus precisely be God? [rhetorical]

 

[Ebionite]

Why do you think that verse applies to Jesus?

Because of the spirit of truth.

https://hosea6.tech/pages/twin.html#s15

John 15​
23	He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24	If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25	But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26	But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

There are three Psalms of David that mention unjustified hatred. Psalm 22 and 69 are about the crucified twin, Psalm 35 is about the Messiah, and Psalm 109 is about Paul.

Psalms 35​
19	Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: [neither] let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause.

Psalms 69​
4	They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, [being] mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored [that] which I took not away.

Psalms 109​
3	They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.

Psalm 35 relates to the Messiah because of the trap of entanglement, the false testimony against him, his behaviour towards Judas Iscariot, the appeal against the boast of his enemies, the symbolism of the serpent, and the righteous servant of Isaiah 53.

The trap of entanglement relates to the Pharisees and Herodians (Edom).

Psalms 35​
7	For without cause have they hid for me their net [in] a pit, [which] without cause they have digged for my soul.

Matthew 22​
15	Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in [his] talk.
16	And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any [man]: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17	Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18	But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?
19	Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20	And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription?
21	They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22	When they had heard [these words], they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

 

[Trailblazer]

The concept of "essence" was used in the formation of the Nicene Creed in the 4th century; thus, Jesus was and is considered to be of the "essence" of God. Since both have different names, and since Jesus often prayed to God, how could Jesus precisely be God? [rhetorical]

I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, but not the "essence" of God, since I believe that the essence of God can never be known.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because of the spirit of truth.

https://hosea6.tech/pages/twin.html#s15

So you think that Jesus was the spirit of truth?

 

[metis]

I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, but not the "essence" of God, since I believe that the essence of God can never be known.

So, how would you define "manifestation" in that context?

Also, the concept of "essence" doesn't imply that we can know everything about that relationship, only that Jesus had a special designation from the Father because of their closeness from a Christian perspective. It's sorta like "You can tell somethings about a person by the company they keep".

 

[Ebionite]

So you think that Jesus was the spirit of truth?

No, he said that it would be sent and it associated with comfort, i.e. the message that he wasn't tortured to death.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, how would you define "manifestation" in that context?

Below is the Baha'i definition of a Manifestation of God.

The Manifestation of God (Persian: مظهر ظهور maẓhar ẓohūr) is a concept in the Baháʼí Faith that refers to what are commonly called prophets. The Manifestations of God are appearances of the Divine Spirit or Holy Spirit in a series of personages, and as such, they perfectly reflect the attributes of the divine into the human world for the progress and advancement of human morals and civilization through the agency of that same Spirit.[1]

In the Baha'i Faith, it is believed that the Manifestations of God are the only channel for humanity to know about God because contact with the Spirit is what transforms the heart and mind, creating a living relationship between the soul and God. They act as perfect mirrors reflecting the attributes of God into the physical world.[2] Baháʼí teachings hold that the motive force in all human development is due to the coming of the Manifestations of God.[3] The Manifestations of God are directly linked with the Baháʼí concepts of progressive revelation and unity of religion.[4]

Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, the concept of "essence" doesn't imply that we can know everything about that relationship, only that Jesus had a special designation from the Father because of their closeness from a Christian perspective. It's sorta like "You can tell somethings about a person by the company they keep".

If you read the definition of Manifestation above you will see that it implies a special designation from the Father because of their closeness, so it means the same thing as what you are referring to as the "essence" of God. Baha'is believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, but not the only one, as Christians believe Jesus was.

 

[Ebionite]

Below is the Baha'i definition of a Manifestation of God.

The Manifestation of God (Persian: مظهر ظهور maẓhar ẓohūr) is a concept in the Baháʼí Faith that refers to what are commonly called prophets. The Manifestations of God are appearances of the Divine Spirit or Holy Spirit in a series of personages, and as such, they perfectly reflect the attributes of the divine into the human world for the progress and advancement of human morals and civilization through the agency of that same Spirit.[1]

In the Baha'i Faith, it is believed that the Manifestations of God are the only channel for humanity to know about God because contact with the Spirit is what transforms the heart and mind, creating a living relationship between the soul and God. They act as perfect mirrors reflecting the attributes of God into the physical world.[2] Baháʼí teachings hold that the motive force in all human development is due to the coming of the Manifestations of God.[3] The Manifestations of God are directly linked with the Baháʼí concepts of progressive revelation and unity of religion.[4]

Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you read the definition of Manifestation above you will see that it implies a special designation from the Father because of their closeness, so it means the same thing as what you are referring to as the "essence" of God. Baha'is believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, but not the only one, as Christians believe Jesus was.

The Baha'i concept is consistent with the teaching from the gospel of John:

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 10:33-36

I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psalms 82:6-7

 

[paarsurrey]

No, he was rescued.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8

For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I.
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."
The Apocalypse of Peter

You hear that I suffered, yet I suffered not; and that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; and that I was pierced , yet I was not wounded; that I was hanged, yet I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me; yet it did not flow, and, in a word, that what they say of me, I did not endure, but what they do not say, those things I did suffer.
The Mystery of the Cross, from the Acts of John.

That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah' -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not -- nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself.
The Qur'an, Surah 4:157-158

" That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah' -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not -- nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself.
The Qur'an, Surah 4:157-158 "
I appreciate our friend @Ebionite for quoting English translation of the above verses from Quran, the original text of Quran in Arabic is:

4:157 وَقَوۡلِهِمۡ إِنَّا قَتَلۡنَا ٱلۡمَسِیحَ عِیسَى ٱبۡنَ مَرۡیَمَ رَسُولَ ٱللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمۡۚ وَإِنَّ ٱلَّذِینَ ٱخۡتَلَفُوا۟ فِیهِ لَفِی شَكࣲّ مِّنۡهُۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِۦ مِنۡ عِلۡمٍ إِلَّا ٱتِّبَاعَ ٱلظَّنِّۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ یَقِینَۢا ۝١٥٧
4:158 بَل رَّفَعَهُ ٱللَّهُ إِلَیۡهِۚ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَزِیزًا حَكِیمࣰا ۝١

an-Nisa` (Women) at IslamAwakened.com

www.islamawakened.com

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'i concept is consistent with the teaching from the gospel of John:

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 10:33-36

I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psalms 82:6-7

It is consistent, except that Baha'is do not believe that a Manifestation of God is God incarnate (God in the flesh.) In other words, we don't believe that God actually became flesh. Rather we believe that God manifested all His attributes in the flesh when Jesus appeared.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)…..

The New Testament, similarly, contains statements where Jesus describes Himself as God, and others where He makes a distinction between Himself and God. For example, 'I and the Father are One (John 10:30); and 'the Father is in me, and I am in the Father (John 1038); but on the other hand, 'the Father is greater than I (John 14:28); and 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). These statements do not contradict, but are complementary if one assumes they assert an epistemological oneness with God, but an ontological separateness from the Unknowable Essence.”

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The concept of "essence" was used in the formation of the Nicene Creed in the 4th century; thus, Jesus was and is considered to be of the "essence" of God. Since both have different names, and since Jesus often prayed to God, how could Jesus precisely be God? [rhetorical]

I understand. I have always been interested in Trinitarianism, because it was when Jesus became God that Jews began to be accused of deicide. I've read several books on the subject. I probably know far more about it than any Jew should know. LOLOLOL I know all about homoousios and how difficult it is to translate that word into English. My only point is that it IS CLEAR that the intent is to say that Jesus IS GOD, as the portion of the creed I quoted says point blank.

 

[Ebionite]

It is consistent, except that Baha'is do not believe that a Manifestation of God is God incarnate (God in the flesh.) In other words, we don't believe that God actually became flesh. Rather we believe that God manifested all His attributes in the flesh when Jesus appeared.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)…..

The New Testament, similarly, contains statements where Jesus describes Himself as God, and others where He makes a distinction between Himself and God. For example, 'I and the Father are One (John 10:30); and 'the Father is in me, and I am in the Father (John 1038); but on the other hand, 'the Father is greater than I (John 14:28); and 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). These statements do not contradict, but are complementary if one assumes they assert an epistemological oneness with God, but an ontological separateness from the Unknowable Essence.”

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

"God" is ambiguous, and can refer to Elohim. Elohim has a physical aspect - the prophet or angel/messenger of the specific event.

Exodus 3 describes the distinction between Elohim and YHWH.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

"God" is ambiguous, and can refer to Elohim. Elohim has a physical aspect - the prophet or angel/messenger of the specific event.

Exodus 3 describes the distinction between Elohim and YHWH.

Elohim, referring to the God of Abraham, has NO PHYSICAL ASPECT. Elohim and YHWH are the same God.

 

[Ebionite]

Elohim, referring to the God of Abraham, has NO PHYSICAL ASPECT. Elohim and YHWH are the same God.

No, Elohim is a plural word, but YHWH is the proper name of a singular being.

שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד

Hear, Israel: YHWH is our Elah, YHWH is one
Deuteronomy 6:4

And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, Elohim is a plural word, but YHWH is the proper name of a singular being.

שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד

Hear, Israel: YHWH is our Elah, YHWH is one
Deuteronomy 6:4

And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26

Sometimes elohim is plural, meaning gods or angels or human judges. And sometimes it is singular. When used to refer to teh God of Abraham, it is singular.

BTW the word in Deut 6:4 is Eloheinu, not Elah.