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  1. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, Clement certainly does say the bread and wine are symbols. I suppose a Catholic might try to argue he believed they are both literally the body and blood and also have a symbolic significance. But he does not say, here that Jesus was speaking literally. One of the early Christians I enjoy...
  2. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, that is interesting. Please do send me a lonk or copy and paste a quote or two. :)
  3. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, I see now how it is possible Christ was using a figure of speech when he said the bread was his body in Matthew 26:26 and he said his flesh was real food in John 6:55. Yet it is not certain. So since scripture itself is not enough to remove all doubt, where else should I look for the proof...
  4. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, thanks for the informative reply. I would not call it a lie, though. A more accurate word might be misunderstanding. A lie brings to mind the idea that the one saying it knows it isn't true. I do not find any such deception in the case of KatieMyGirl. She appears to be nothing but honest...
  5. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    I'm a fan of science fiction as you might have guessed from my user name. One sci-fi movie I watched was called Snow Piercer. It isn't a movie I'd recommend, but once I started watching it, it was like a train wreck. In the film was a living one-armed man. The protagonist of the film learned the...
  6. Spockrates

    Is the argument from ignorance always a fallacy?

    I learn best from example. So here is an example you might run into at this forum during a debate between a Catholic and Other Christian: 26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”...
  7. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Well, I think KatieMyGirl's premise was that the practice of withholding wine from parishioners began around AD 1470. So I guessed at what the reason might be for that date triggering the change. England being at war with France resulting in a shortage of wine seemed a logical inference, based...
  8. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, and Catholics tell me that passage is proof the bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ. Yes, that makes sense. One might say there is a conflict of two biblical principles--one to obey those in positions of authority outside the church and one to eat bread and drink wine. The legal...
  9. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    KatieMyGirl: My apologies is this is turning into some kind of debate. You've given me something substantial to think about--especially the possibility that Jesus' words in John 6:55 could be interpreted to mean food is a symbol for something else. I mean, if the statement, "Christ is the real...
  10. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    What if someone is an alcoholic? Should such a one be forced to drink the wine? I'm reminded of what Paul wrote: 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to...
  11. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Hi, Kepha. Glad a Catholic has joined the discussion. :) So KatieMyGirl raised a couple of good objections. I hope you might have a good response. 1. Isn't eating flesh cannibalism, which is a sin? 2. Isn't it possible Christ was using eating and drinking as a metaphor for believing in him?
  12. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    I asked a Catholic at work, who is an older lady if there was ever a time after her confirmation when she--even as a child--was not allowed to drink the wine at mass. She said there was not. She is a devout Catholic who seems to be extremely knowledgable about her faith. There appears to be a...
  13. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, we agree. Water one drinks with her mouth is spiritual drink, and manna one eats with her mouth is spiritual food. :) So when Jesus says, "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink." (John 6:55), he is speaking of spiritual food. In this we also agree. Since spiritual food and...
  14. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Think about what you are saying: Is it right to set a person up for failure? If there is no wine to drink, should you condemn a person for failing to do what is impossible for her to do? What does Jesus say? Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come...
  15. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Great minds think alike! Or have the same God reminding them. 1 Corinthians 10 was the passage I had in mind. Isn't Paul saying the literal water that came from the rock Moses struck, which the Jeswish people drank, was spiritual drink?
  16. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, I agree. One must obey Christ, but perhaps only as far as she is able? You see? I think there is a difference between following the letter of the law and following the spirit of the law--including not only the commandments of the Old Testament but also the commandments of Christ. Notice...
  17. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    I believe a Catholic would say (1) and (2) apply to the bread and wine. It consists of the spirit, for it is the Son of God and God is spirit (1). Since it is God, it is sacred (2). Once at a Catholic forum, I asked if they believed God was a loaf of bread. There was outrage and I received a...
  18. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    LOL! My dogs resemble that remark. But I still admire their dogged determination to keep trying. :D
  19. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    I think scripture is authoritative in the same way state and federal laws are authoritative. Insofar as they are correctly understood, they should be obeyed. An example: You might have seen in the national news, lately, that there was a big uproar about a law passed in my home state of...
  20. Spockrates

    Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

    Yes, I've heard that. Thanks. I'd say Katie's dogs and mine are hunting, instead of fighting. Just trying to figure out whose dogs are barking up the wrong tree! But if your dog can't hunt, that's OK. :P
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