2024 USA PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION DAY watch party.

[Nimos]

I hate to say it, but I think this may result in permanent loss of Ukrainian territory because I just don't see a way for Europe to sufficiently fill the void that the US would leave if it pulled out of aiding Ukraine, which is now likely to happen given that Republicans have control of the White House and both chambers of Congress (so far, at least, and control of the Senate alone could disrupt a lot of aid packages anyway).

Europe is simply not equipped financially or demographically to match the US. The rise of far-right parties in some European countries also doesn't bode well for long-term aid to Ukraine even from its European allies.

Maybe or he could escalate it, by threatening Putin with force, who knows?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Maybe or he could escalate it, by threatening Putin with force, who knows?

I think that would be extremely unlikely, but yes, who knows? Trump is nothing if not unpredictable.

 

[Kenny]

So they vote for someone who'll lower taxes for the ultra rich while making the prices of the "plebs"s shopping carts skyrocket by imposing tarrifs on every import?

That is not the real picture. When they reduce taxes, they reduce everyon's taxes because it is an overall reduction of taxes. It will include the rich.

Hopefully, they will get Musk’s wisdom and reduce government spending by 2 TRILLION dollars to finance the reduction is taxes.

 

[Debater Slayer]

After the past several years, I have realized that self-reflection and actually admitting mistakes is something Democrats just aren't willing to do. They have a superiority complex so thick that you can cut it with a knife.

That was the exact impression I had when I read Bill Clinton's absurd and patronizing speech to voters in Michigan. One would think that the party of Bill and Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Joe Biden—all of whom have enough issues to require entirely separate discussions—would have little room for sanctimony, but apparently, the extent of the party's overall lack of self-awareness is only matched by the extent of its inability to learn from the 2016 election.

It's just a shame that the other party is even worse.

 

[Nimos]

I think that would be extremely unlikely, but yes, who knows? Trump is nothing if not unpredictable.

I mean not by using US force, but by allowing Ukraine more options to use what they get and maybe better weapons. Trump has mentioned several times that others respect him and I think he believes that because he is the type of person he is. There is no doubt when you see him, that he really likes to be seen as the big important guy that gets things done.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't know exactly what he has said. But as far as I know, Americans have seen an increase in cost in the last few years

As did the rest of the world. This is not some exclusively "american" problem. World economies are very interconnected through imports and exports.
And if a big country like Russia starts weaponizing their main exports, what do people expect would start happening? It has extreme ripple effects.

Even if the US didn't import anything directly from Russia, this makes no difference.
Gas prices exploded in Europe as a direct result of Putin's actions. The cost of electricity is tied to the price of gas also, so price of electricity goes up as well, even if it is produced by wind or nuclear instead of gas. So production in Europe was suddenly faced with an extreme rise in costs. This increased cost gets translated into an increased cost of whatever the finished product is. This product is then exported to the US. At greater cost then before.

It's not exactly rocket science. Sudden extreme increases in costs of things like energy almost immediately "infect" just about all trade lines.

and obviously as people normally do they blame the sitting government

And if they do so, it can only be because they don't think things through and / or are completely oblivious to what is happening in the rest of the world.

I could imagine that the average American is thinking, "Why do we have to pay so much money to some war somewhere in Europe?" when we are struggling?

Sure. But it is off course the wrong question to ask. The increased prices for goods are not the result of the US sending aid to Ukraine.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That is not the real picture. When they reduce taxes, they reduce everyon's taxes because it is an overall reduction of taxes. It will include the rich.

A Distributional Analysis of Donald Trump’s Tax Plan

Former President Donald Trump has proposed a wide variety of tax policy changes. Taken together, these proposals would, on average, lead to a tax cut for the richest 5 percent of Americans and a tax increase for all other income groups.

itep.org

Taken together, these proposals would, on average, lead to a tax cut for the richest 5 percent of Americans and a tax increase for all other income groups.

If these proposals were in effect in 2026, the richest 1 percent would receive an average tax cut of about $36,300 and the next richest 4 percent would receive an average tax cut of about $7,200. All other groups would see a tax increase with the hike on the middle 20 percent at about $1,500 and the increase on the lowest-income 20 percent of Americans at about $800.

Hopefully, they will get Musk’s wisdom and reduce government spending by 2 TRILLION dollars to finance the reduction is taxes.

The main thing they will get from Musk is abolition of worker rights and unions.

 

[wellwisher]

I thought. I would be the bringer of good news.Trump won the Presidency and appears to have also won the popular vote. The Republicans also won back the Senate and the House is close, but has not yet been decided, as of Nov 6, 7AM Eastern Time.

The Media complex and all their fake news, was not enough to put Harris over the top. They had a large fraction of the country and world hypnotized but enough people, awoke, from both sides, with logic and reason, instead of emotions, were able to overcome. Hopefully, both the Democrats and the media complex with get past their George Orwell, Animal Farm, mentality and come along to the future.

Animal Farm (1984) is a satirical allegoricalnovella, in the form of a beast fable,[1] by George Orwell(pseudonym of Eric Arthur Blair), first published in England on 17 August 1945.[2][3] It tells the story of a group of anthropomorphic farm animalswho rebel against their human farmer, hoping to create a society where the animals can be equal, free, and happy. Ultimately, the rebellion is betrayed, and under the dictatorship of a pig named Napoleon, the farm ends up in a state far worse than before.

 

[Nimos]

As did the rest of the world. This is not some exclusively "american" problem. World economies are very interconnected through imports and exports.
And if a big country like Russia starts weaponizing their main exports, what do people expect would start happening? It has extreme ripple effects.

Even if the US didn't import anything directly from Russia, this makes no difference.
Gas prices exploded in Europe as a direct result of Putin's actions. The cost of electricity is tied to the price of gas also, so price of electricity goes up as well, even if it is produced by wind or nuclear instead of gas. So production in Europe was suddenly faced with an extreme rise in costs. This increased cost gets translated into an increased cost of whatever the finished product is. This product is then exported to the US. At greater cost then before.

It's not exactly rocket science.

I agree, the question is if the average American see it that way?

And what they are being told about the issues if their focus is on China or migration or some other political issues, it is not certain that the average American sees Ukraine as a huge issue. You have to remember that the US is a huge country and they are known for not really knowing a lot about the world outside. Obviously not everyone, talking the average person here.

And if they do so, it can only be because they don't think things through and / or are completely oblivious to what is happening in the rest of the world.

I have little clue what is going on in China, Germany and even the US when talking internally, and when you live in those countries obviously these things are a whole lot more important to you, especially if things are not going too well and then you will focus on that.

I think the average person in the US is well aware that there is a war, issues with China, Israel etc. but they like us, don't know what is going on in other countries beyond "huge" events.

So I wouldn't expect the average American to care more than anyone else.

Sure. But it is off course the wrong question to ask. The increased prices for goods are not the result of the US sending aid to Ukraine.

But the person might think that they could use this money to solve migration issues or whatever other problem they have. They could throw all the money into their school systems or healthcare or whatever.

I think that is how one would think about it.

 

[Nimos]

I thought. I would be the bringer of good news.Trump won the Presidency and appears to have also won the popular vote. The Republicans also won back the Senate and the House is close, but has not yet been decided, as of Nov 6, 7AM Eastern Time.

The Media complex and all their fake news, was not enough to put Harris over the top. They had a large fraction of the country and world hypnotized but enough people, awoke, from both sides, with logic and reason, instead of emotions, were able to overcome. Hopefully, both the Democrats and the media complex with get past their George Orwell, Animal Farm, mentality and come along to the future.

Congrats

What about all the voting fraud that Trump talked about, that turned out to be nothing I assume now that he won?

 

[sayak83]

I thought. I would be the bringer of good news.Trump won the Presidency and appears to have also won the popular vote. The Republicans also won back the Senate and the House is close, but has not yet been decided, as of Nov 6, 7AM Eastern Time.

The Media complex and all their fake news, was not enough to put Harris over the top. They had a large fraction of the country and world hypnotized but enough people, awoke, from both sides, with logic and reason, instead of emotions, were able to overcome. Hopefully, both the Democrats and the media complex with get past their George Orwell, Animal Farm, mentality and come along to the future.

Yes, I agree. A weak America with felon braggart president will be very useful. Most of the world is actually overjoyed at this ready made turkey dinner. Let the carving of American power among successor claimants begin!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I agree, the question is if the average American see it that way?

And what they are being told about the issues if their focus is on China or migration or some other political issues, it is not certain that the average American sees Ukraine as a huge issue. You have to remember that the US is a huge country and they are known for not really knowing a lot about the world outside. Obviously not everyone, talking the average person here.

I think we are in general agreement.
What I take issue with, is that leaders / politicians ARE aware of the "world outside" and they DO know these things. They are the ones spreading internal misinformation, pretending as if it is due to the policies of the other politicians while they know full well this is not the case at all.

Yes, it is well known that your average Joe America knows little of what goes on outside of 'Murica. All the more reason for their leaders to be honest about it and educate them, instead of using it for their own narcistic, opportunistic, selfish advantage by preying on that ignorance to knowingly feed them with pure lies.

I have little clue what is going on in China, Germany and even the US when talking internally, and when you live in those countries obviously these things are a whole lot more important to you, especially if things are not going too well and then you will focus on that.

Sure. I would to. But I wouldn't blame the current government for inflation of prices that other countries are ultimately responsible for...

Stuff like this is exactly what I identify as the problem with "democracy".
I still think it is in essence the "least bad" system in comparison with all others that have already been tried.
But ultimately, it puts the country also at the mercy of the delusions and ignorance of the voters. And with the advent of AI, these things will only get exponentially worse.

I don't know what the answer is here... but for quite some time now I have felt like we are in desperate need of some sort of checks and balances as counter measures.
And I'm not merely talking about Trump here. I'm talking about democracy in general in the digital age. Trump in that conversation is merely a symbol / example of how things are going down the pooper.

 

[Kenny]

A Distributional Analysis of Donald Trump’s Tax Plan

Former President Donald Trump has proposed a wide variety of tax policy changes. Taken together, these proposals would, on average, lead to a tax cut for the richest 5 percent of Americans and a tax increase for all other income groups.

itep.org

Taken together, these proposals would, on average, lead to a tax cut for the richest 5 percent of Americans and a tax increase for all other income groups.

If these proposals were in effect in 2026, the richest 1 percent would receive an average tax cut of about $36,300 and the next richest 4 percent would receive an average tax cut of about $7,200. All other groups would see a tax increase with the hike on the middle 20 percent at about $1,500 and the increase on the lowest-income 20 percent of Americans at about $800.


The main thing they will get from Musk is abolition of worker rights and unions.

I believe that a lot of it is speculation… From Business Insider:

Low- and middle-income earners​

Under Trump's proposal, lower- and middle-income Americans could see some tax reductions, especially if they're trying to pay off a car or have a job that relies primarily on tips. Trump has proposed extending his slew of tax cuts from the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 — also known as the "Trump tax cut." He's also seeking to eliminate taxes on tips, overtime, and Social Security benefits, as well as making car interest payments tax deductible.

Based on an analysis from the left-leaning Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, keeping the income-tax cuts from the TCJA alone could mean a tax reduction of just over $1,000 for the middle 20% of Americans.

They believe that because of Tariffs there might be a net loss - but that is speculation as we don’t know what will actually happen. Then you have increased exemptions that may put it back to a net gain in less taxes.

The proof of who is right will be in the tasting of the pudding.

What a Trump or Harris presidency would mean for your tax bill

BI looked at how Harris and Trump's tax policies could impact high- and low-income earners, as well as businesses.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Mock Turtle]

After the past several years, I have realized that self-reflection and actually admitting mistakes is something Democrats just aren't willing to do. They have a superiority complex so thick that you can cut it with a knife.

Yeah, surely this is Trump's fiefdom.

 

[Stevicus]

That was the exact impression I had when I read Bill Clinton's absurd and patronizing speech to voters in Michigan. One would think that the party of Bill and Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Joe Biden—all of whom have enough issues to require entirely separate discussions—would have little room for sanctimony, but apparently, the extent of the party's overall lack of self-awareness is only matched by the extent of its inability to learn from the 2016 election.

It's just a shame that the other party is even worse.

The party of the Clintons, Obama, Biden - they were once the party of FDR, Truman, JFK. But to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, "They're not Jack Kennedy."

I sometimes get the same impression when looking at debates and discussions on these issues. It's hard to tell if people are really speaking from the heart or if they're just reading from a script or repeating something they saw on TV.

Trump, on the other hand, doesn't appear be reading from a script. He just says whatever pops into his head. Many observe that to be an indication of Trump's dangerousness and recklessness, but I can see where others might view it as more "real" or "sincere." As bizarre as it may sound, it seems that some people prefer a sincere lie over a fake truth. More is the pity. (As Al Pacino said in Scarface, "I always tell the truth, even when I lie.")

Also, another thing that wasn't talked about much, but what I noticed in the debate, is that at one particular point, Trump was trying to paint himself as a "big dog" on the world scene - a tough guy who could stand up to the likes of Putin and Xi, while chiding Harris and suggesting she was too weak and would be in over her head. Just as with Nixon and Reagan, there's an American tendency to elect the "tough madman" when they fear the outside world or some other troubling malady. Americans rejected Adlai Stevenson because they thought he was an intellectual. "We don't want any smart people running this country!"

Overall, it's kind of sad. I don't know what, exactly, will happen next. I'm not really expecting a "worst case scenario" right away.

 

[Wandering Monk]

1933 all over again. MGGA

 

[Nimos]

I think we are in general agreement.
What I take issue with, is that leaders / politicians ARE aware of the "world outside" and they DO know these things. They are the ones spreading internal misinformation, pretending as if it is due to the policies of the other politicians while they know full well this is not the case at all.

Yes, it is well known that your average Joe America knows little of what goes on outside of 'Murica. All the more reason for their leaders to be honest about it and educate them, instead of using it for their own narcistic, opportunistic, selfish advantage by preying on that ignorance to knowingly feed them with pure lies.

This is nothing new, politicians are in general not considered very trustworthy

Also, they want to get elected, and they are not known for starting to try to explain "complicated" issues, it is apparently not as effective as "I will solve all your problems" kind of rhetoric

Sure. I would to. But I wouldn't blame the current government for inflation of prices that other countries are ultimately responsible for...

Stuff like this is exactly what I identify as the problem with "democracy".
I still think it is in essence the "least bad" system in comparison with all others that have already been tried.
But ultimately, it puts the country also at the mercy of the delusions and ignorance of the voters. And with the advent of AI, these things will only get exponentially worse.

I don't know what the answer is here... but for quite some time now I have felt like we are in desperate need of some sort of checks and balances as counter measures.
And I'm not merely talking about Trump here. I'm talking about democracy in general in the digital age. Trump in that conversation is merely a symbol / example of how things are going down the pooper.

Agree, but also most political decision often takes time to have an effect, so often what is considered good is not the sitting party that has done it. But the former one might have done something that is now taking effect, but if they have been removed from office the other part will benefit from it. So people might point fingers at Biden for having done certain things, but it might actually be because of Trump, but they blame Biden for it. Obviously not saying that this is true in all cases, but something that a lot of people don't really think about.

Most things are not as straightforward as the politicians often want it to appear.

I think the problem with democracy is that you often get the impression that it is not really about finding the best solutions or achieving goals for the better good as much as it is about winning over someone else and achieving power for a group of people or individuals.

In theory, there shouldn't really be an election at all, it should be a dynamic organisation working together with lots of different expertise with the goal of finding and executing the best solutions for the country and its people. It shouldn't matter if you are green, blue or red. The problem as I see it, is that there is a lack of overall goals in societies, what exactly are we trying to achieve? Equality for all humans? Solving the climate crisis? A superior health system?

But most of the time it is aimed at certain groups of people, whether that is the rich (usually) or the middle class or the poor. And there are so many outside influences, whether those are foreign or organisations etc. that it just turns into this fight between parties trying to satisfy these influences.

But all types of government seems to have this issue in my opinion.

 

[Eliana]

I thought. I would be the bringer of good news.Trump won the Presidency and appears to have also won the popular vote. The Republicans also won back the Senate and the House is close, but has not yet been decided, as of Nov 6, 7AM Eastern Time.

The Media complex and all their fake news, was not enough to put Harris over the top. They had a large fraction of the country and world hypnotized but enough people, awoke, from both sides, with logic and reason, instead of emotions, were able to overcome. Hopefully, both the Democrats and the media complex with get past their George Orwell, Animal Farm, mentality and come along to the future.

Where's the good news you're bringing?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Trump, on the other hand, doesn't appear be reading from a script. He just says whatever pops into his head. Many observe that to be an indication of Trump's dangerousness and recklessness, but I can see where others might view it as more "real" or "sincere." As bizarre as it may sound, it seems that some people prefer a sincere lie over a fake truth. More is the pity. (As Al Pacino said in Scarface, "I always tell the truth, even when I lie.")

This is the sort of thing I hear from Trump supporters that makes it difficult to see Trump's appeal.

I really do get the sense that Trump supporters generally fall into a few categories:

- anti-choicers who don't like him, but are willing to vote for anyone who will appoint anti-abortion judges

- people who see his racism, misogyny and xenophobia as positives, not negatives

- people who just want to metaphorically burn the whole system down and see Trump as the guy to do it, or

- people whose Republican party affiliation is such a part of their identity that they'd never think to vote for anyone else.


Except for the second category, I see very few people who can coherently express why they think Trump will do what they consider to be a good job. People will fire off platitudes like "the economy!" but without anything to back it up, so it feels like cover for their real reasons for voting for him.

I just don't get it.

 

[Nimos]

Except for the second category, I see very few people who can coherently express why they think Trump will do what they consider to be a good job. People will fire off platitudes like "the economy!" but without anything to back it up, so it feels like cover for their real reasons for voting for him.

I just don't get it.

One of the things that surprises me the most is really how little the US seems to care about all the cases against him. They have potentially voted a criminal as President, obviously, we will never find out as he will now get rid of all those now, but I would at least have thought it had played a bigger role.

Whether you like Trump or not, you have to give him that he is a good manipulator.