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6-year-old student shoots teacher in Virginia classroom, police say

Left Coast

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Subduction Zone said:
First off I made no claims about what sort of laws that Virginia had. I did say that if such laws exist that punishment must be mandatory. She should be in prison since her disregard for the safety of others led to a life threatening injury. Second Virginia does not have proper child protection laws in place:

States with Firearm Laws Designed to Protect Children

As a gun supporters you should be in favor of such laws. You see what more and more people like @Left Coast would do and with an attitude like yours and that of other gun owners that will not step up he may be right. I am pro gun rights, I do not support a total ban. But we do need to do far more than we have been.

You may not realize it but if a person knows that they will be prosecuted if someone else gets a hold of their guns, especially if they did not follow reasonable precautions, their behavior will change. If that gun owner knew that she would go to prison if her kid took her gun she might not have just cavalierly left her gun in her purse or wherever she had it.
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How did I get roped into this? Lol.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
You need to know a few more criminals. Though some of them do like owning guns, for them it is more of a matter of a purchase of convenience. A stolen gun will not get anywhere near market value. Many times the last thing that a burglar wants is a gun. That can add years to a sentence if caught. If they see a gun they will take it because it is easy to sell, but never at a high cost. If the legal sources of guns dry up that enable them to be stolen. On the street you are not apt to pay more than $200 for a gun and often it will be in the $100 to $150 range. That is far far less than even the wholesale cost of guns. Smuggling is not cheap. Smuggled guns are apt to go for more than retail:

How Much Does A Gun Cost On The Street? - Gun Laws

Get rid of legal guns and the number of illegal guns will plummet too.
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Here is an interesting paragraph of the article you posted:

But the lowest street price came between 1973 and 1980, when millions of gun owners who had been made outlaws by California, Illinois, and New Jersey gun control laws tired of waiting for repeal and started dumping their contraband for whatever they could get. At that time, a war souvenir BYF Luger would have brought the handsome sum of ten bucks in the Rotten Apple.

Why would this not happen again? You would not need to smuggle guns into the US for a long time, smuggled drugs do not seem to be very expensive what is the difference for smuggled guns?.

How do you get rid of all the guns if gun ownership is outlawed? In the meantime, every person in the US is not allowed to protect themselves or their families from people with illegal guns. We need a process for getting rid of the guns and keep people safe. I have never heard any good proposal for this.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
The Kilted Heathen said:
A'yuh. You're making a claim as though it's a certainty, it's up to you to prove that.
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I think it is common sense. There are still illegal guns in Australia, we have illegal drugs here. I would definitely have one if they were outlawed, so there would be at least one person creating a demand. Maybe I will spend more time on it if you prove "no one needs a gun". That is demonstrably false.
 
The Kilted Heathen

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Clizby Wampuscat said:
I think it is common sense.
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Common sense to you, perhaps, but that does not make it fact.

There are still illegal guns in Australia,
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And yet they still have exponentially less deaths from firearms, 70% of which are suicides.

Maybe I will spend more time on it if you prove "no one needs a gun". That is demonstrably false.
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Then demonstrate it. Give a reason why you need a gun beyond "It's my right" or "Because" or "I don't need to give a reason."
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Clizby Wampuscat said:
Here is an interesting paragraph of the article you posted:

But the lowest street price came between 1973 and 1980, when millions of gun owners who had been made outlaws by California, Illinois, and New Jersey gun control laws tired of waiting for repeal and started dumping their contraband for whatever they could get. At that time, a war souvenir BYF Luger would have brought the handsome sum of ten bucks in the Rotten Apple.

Why would this not happen again? You would not need to smuggle guns into the US for a long time, smuggled drugs do not seem to be very expensive what is the difference for smuggled guns?.

How do you get rid of all the guns if gun ownership is outlawed? In the meantime, every person in the US is not allowed to protect themselves or their families from people with illegal guns. We need a process for getting rid of the guns and keep people safe. I have never heard any good proposal for this.
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That is only assuming that the US does not follow the Fifth Amendment on taking the materials of others. One would hope that the US does better than states did. Still, it would only be a temporary problem at the worst.

And why do you think such protections are necessary?
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
The Kilted Heathen said:
Common sense to you, perhaps, but that does not make it fact.
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Yes it is, because I told you I would obtain an illegal gun if this happened. That is a demand. Now if you are done with the games I think most people would agree that it is obvious there would be a demand for guns if gun ownership was made illegal. Just like every other item that has ever been banned.


And yet they still have exponentially less deaths from firearms, 70% of which are suicides.
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So you admit societies that have strict gun laws still have illegal guns. This was my point.


Then demonstrate it. Give a reason why you need a gun beyond "It's my right" or "Because" or "I don't need to give a reason."
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To defend myself and others from other people wanting to harm me or others. It is that simple. People are attacked everyday, how can you ensure myself or my family will not be violently attacked? If I don't have a gun I am at a severe disadvantage to a person coming into my house to harm us whether they have a gun or not. In a free society the government needs to have a compelling reason to take away someone's right to defend themselves not the other way around. There are people that will not give up their guns even if they are made illegal to own. So then the government will have to take them by force and that would be very bloody.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
That is only assuming that the US does not follow the Fifth Amendment on taking the materials of others. One would hope that the US does better than states did. Still, it would only be a temporary problem at the worst.

And why do you think such protections are necessary?
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Are you asking why I need to protect myself?
 
The Kilted Heathen

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Clizby Wampuscat said:
Yes it is, because I told you I would obtain an illegal gun if this happened. That is a demand.[/quote[
That's still just your assumption, it is not a fact. You may have intention to be a criminal, but you don't know if that will be possible.
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So you admit societies that have strict gun laws still have illegal guns.[/quote]
It's not something I've denied. I've simply asked you to prove your assumption that such would be the same case in America. You are absolutely able to form an assumption or a theory based on those facts, but that does not then become a fact until proven.

To defend myself and others from other people wanting to harm me or others. It is that simple.
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Uh huh. And why do you need a gun? Why do you need an option of lethality, rather than say a taser or pepper spray?

If I don't have a gun I am at a severe disadvantage to a person coming into my house to harm us whether they have a gun or not.
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A fear-based reason for owning a deadly weapon is a poor reason for owning said weapon.

In a free society the government needs to have a compelling reason to take away someone's right to defend themselves not the other way around.
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In an ideal society the reasons people commit crime would be properly addressed, rather than your draconian "Lock them up better". But the Right consistently abhors ever having that discussion.

There are people that will not give up their guns even if they are made illegal to own.
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Then those people are stupid, and prove the point that they should not own guns by being the point and the problem.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
No, I seriously doubt if you have such a need. You may have a fear but it is probably not well founded. I will not say definitely, but most people that think they "need" a gun only seem to want one.
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No one else can give me as high of a standard of safety as myself. About 2% of home burglaries in the US result in a violent crime. That is about 50,000/year or 5+ per hour.
 
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