A Bunch of Reasons Why I Question Noah's Flood Story:

[Subduction Zone]

I am more concerned about my own morality than God's. This isn't enough to make me toss the whole Bible.

I have not seen anyone advocating that you toss the whole Bible yet. I have only seen people telling you it is not wise to interpret parts of it literally.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Which Ten Commandments? Most Christians do not know that there is only one set in the whole Bible that is labeled as "The Ten Commandments". The words in titles to chapters were not original. Those were added later.

I would say exodus 20. Originally it had no spacing or cantillation marks or anything.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I have not seen anyone advocating that you toss the whole Bible yet. I have only seen people telling you it is not wise to interpret parts of it literally.

I am just stating that

(A) I don't know everything already and
(B) All the stories woven together help me be better.

The base story's sole purpose is so that the text will survive. I would not dismiss it until it has been looked at by as deep an interpretation as possible.

 

[F1fan]

We gain moral strength by living vicariously through Jesus Christ.

Hindus don't. Muslims don't. Atheists don't. Buddhists don't. Why can't Christians build their own moral strength? And look at how many Christians are corrupt and immoral, how do you account for these people following Jesus?

The whole plan of salvation is very consistent in my experience with people fighting my religion on the Internet.

What do you mean?

 

[F1fan]

Miracles cease among nonbelievers.

The miracle of avoiding reason.

 

[F1fan]

People change, not God. Slaves were supposed to be treated very well. We still have slavery when someone has to take a job.

So you start a new job and don't like it you are forced to keep working there, and not get paid?

 

[F1fan]

People were always commanded to love each other.

Yet you think slavery is acceptable. Is that loving?

 

[robocop (actually)]

Hindus don't. Muslims don't. Atheists don't. Buddhists don't. Why can't Christians build their own moral strength? And look at how many Christians are corrupt and immoral, how do you account for these people following Jesus?


What do you mean?

Christianity is a unique approach. Many Christians may be corrupt but hopefully they are better than they would be without their religion. We are just trying to do the best we can to help humanity. And yes there are wolves among us making us worse.

I'm just saying when I've talked about the underlying principle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the plan of Salvation, I feel I've defended it quite well on the Internet.

Unfortunately the wikipedia page isn't very good so let me try to explain it.

We existed as intelligences in the pre-mortal existence. We were to go to earth to be tested to see if we would show ourselves worthy of coming back to God's presence. Some of us followed Lucifer and wanted to have no choice; they never made it to earth. When we come to earth we forget what happened before so we can be tested properly. The Spirits that didn't make it try to get in our way. Other spirits try to help us. When we die our bodies go to the grave and our spirits go to spirit prison or paradise. Those in paradise preach to those in prison and they will know the truth and it's not to late to accept it, but it's harder to repent without bodies. At the judgement our spirits reunite with our bodies. Everyone becomes immortal but we go to different places based on how we judge ourselves. In the highest place we can create our own Universes under guidance of God.

 

[F1fan]

The ten commandments forbid the kind of Biblical immorality that has been described. The Jews do not practice the kind of immorality that has been described. The New Testament also has cancelled that immorality.

"Why callest thou me good? (why do you use your own defintion of good). There is none good (the real morality) but God (God is the moral one regardless of what we think of Him)."

So if God is the arbiter of what is moral, and you insist God doesn't change, how did God decide to change it's mind on what is moral? You keep trying to have things both ways.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So you start a new job and don't like it you are forced to keep working there, and not get paid?

Remember, the first rule is that we have to love everyone, even our slaves.

• In both the Old and New Testaments, the words used to denote slaves did not necessarily carry the same connotations that we associate with slavery today. Only by understanding the biblical texts and the cultures that produced them can we understand what is being referred to in the Bible.
  
  
• The stealing and selling of human beings, such as has been common throughout human history, is a capital offense according to Old Testament law. The return of fugitive slaves to their masters was also illegal.
  
  
• In almost every instance, the kind of slavery governed by Old Testament law was debt-slavery, where an individual would offer labor in exchange for an outstanding debt that he could not pay. The laws that govern such transactions are given to protect the rights of such slaves, who could only serve for a maximum of six years.
  
  
• Early Christians had to work out their treatment of one another under Roman law, which they lacked the political influence to change.
  
  
• The Christian community was a counter-cultural movement in which social distinctions were all but erased. Jesus is the true Lord, and masters and slaves were expected to treat each other as beloved brothers and sisters and equal members of the body of Christ.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So if God is the arbiter of what is moral, and you insist God doesn't change, how did God decide to change it's mind on what is moral? You keep trying to have things both ways.

Not in the least... it is always the time and culture of the people and what they are capable of doing. Humanity grows over time just like life on earth has evolved over billions of years.

Do you command a paramecium to colonize the Milky Way? Maybe you do, but you give it time to do it.

 

[F1fan]

You can offer a counter view and that's just fine. Was Balaam sinning when he thought the donkey was talking to him? Of course not. It's not a sin to think there was no flood.

These examples are "thought crimes" and good for you to not condemn them as sins like other Christians do. However....

The money changers were turning what Jesus was Himself about into a money-making scheme. If it was a crime, I still do not know of any sin He committed there.

Well these guys were minding their own business doing business, and some guy assaults them and it's OK?

 

[robocop (actually)]

The miracle of avoiding reason.

I have given you the terms. It is up to you to decide how you want to live your life based on how you have been taught.

 

[F1fan]

Remember, the first rule is that we have to love everyone, even our slaves.

• In both the Old and New Testaments, the words used to denote slaves did not necessarily carry the same connotations that we associate with slavery today. Only by understanding the biblical texts and the cultures that produced them can we understand what is being referred to in the Bible.
  
  
• The stealing and selling of human beings, such as has been common throughout human history, is a capital offense according to Old Testament law. The return of fugitive slaves to their masters was also illegal.
  
  
• In almost every instance, the kind of slavery governed by Old Testament law was debt-slavery, where an individual would offer labor in exchange for an outstanding debt that he could not pay. The laws that govern such transactions are given to protect the rights of such slaves, who could only serve for a maximum of six years.
  
  
• Early Christians had to work out their treatment of one another under Roman law, which they lacked the political influence to change.
  
  
• The Christian community was a counter-cultural movement in which social distinctions were all but erased. Jesus is the true Lord, and masters and slaves were expected to treat each other as beloved brothers and sisters and equal members of the body of Christ.

Since YOU brought up working in modern times as a comparison I'm asking you if you started a new job that you didn't like and wanted to quit, but were forced to keep working there and not get paid, would you find that moral?

 

[robocop (actually)]

These examples are "thought crimes" and good for you to not condemn them as sins like other Christians do. However....


Well these guys were minding their own business doing business, and some guy assaults them and it's OK?

I'm glad I don't condemn people for their beliefs. In my church we never condemn people for their beliefs.

So why are you condemning Jesus for his belief that they were turning the temple into a scam?

 

[robocop (actually)]

Since YOU brought up working in modern times as a comparison I'm asking you if you started a new job that you didn't like and wanted to quit, but were forced to keep working there and not get paid, would you find that moral?

No it would not find that moral, so what gives?

 

[F1fan]

I have given you the terms. It is up to you to decide how you want to live your life based on how you have been taught.

Who are you, God?

Aren't you just a sinner who could be mistaken in your religious beliefs? Or do you have absolute knowledge as if God and infallible in what you believe?

Couldn't you be mistaken in your religious beliefs, as a fallible sinner?

 

[F1fan]

I'm glad I don't condemn people for their beliefs. In my church we never condemn people for their beliefs.

So why are you condemning Jesus for his belief that they were turning the temple into a scam?

You're evading my point my making false accusations.

Isn't Jesus sinning when he assaults people minding their own business, and not doing anything to Jesus at all?

 

[robocop (actually)]

Who are you, God?

Aren't you just a sinner who could be mistaken in your religious beliefs? Or do you have absolute knowledge as if God and infallible in what you believe?

Couldn't you be mistaken in your religious beliefs, as a fallible sinner?

Likewise you have given me your terms, and it is up to me to decide how I want to live my life based on what I have been taught.

I was not claiming any authority... just telling you that I have told you what I think and it is up to you to live your life how you will.

 

[F1fan]

No it would not find that moral, so what gives?

So you find slavery immoral if it happens to you. But not other people?