A challenge for Christians

[Bishka]

They're your dots. Would you be so kind as to connect them? Thank you.

Don't think you quite get it, God is the only one who truly knows their hearts, they may claim to be Christian, but only God knows their intents and their thoughts. The public sees their actions. So you will probably not get a single person here who says whether one is a Christian or not, that is up to God.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Don't think you quite get it, God is the only one who truly knows their hearts, they may claim to be Christian, but only God knows their intents and their thoughts. The public sees their actions. So you will probably not get a single person here who says whether one is a Christian or not, that is up to God.

That is so true Becky! I also believe that when we receive praise for things we do on earth we edify ourselves. I believe many Christians do things for others behind the scenes that most people have no idea they do.

 

[Booko]

So you would never use the word "Christian" to describe someone or say that someone was not a Christian? "Christian" is not a word we can use to describe people? What word should we use for members of the Christian religion?

I'm not a Christian, but I would suggest the following as a start;

A Christian is someone who claims to follow the religion begun by Christ.

Now, if you want to judge the sincerity or accuracy of any such claim, I suggest you do your thinking for yourself. Read the Gospels and see if the claim holds water.

I can claim I'm a surgeon, but if you saw me try to do surgery you'd soon know I was full of...beans. I expect in a case like that, you'd have no problem just finding out what it means to be a surgeon, observing my actions, and then judging for yourself.

Why you care to make it so complicated with religions beats me.

 

[Autodidact]

Don't think you quite get it, God is the only one who truly knows their hearts, they may claim to be Christian, but only God knows their intents and their thoughts. The public sees their actions. So you will probably not get a single person here who says whether one is a Christian or not, that is up to God.

Why would someone falsely claim to be Christian? What would it gain them? (Unless they are a 15th century Spanish Jew trying to avoid being murdered by the Inquisition.)

So we should just drop the word from the language? It has no meaning? How do you distinguish one-of-those church's from a different kind of church? What do you call it? What should we call all the members of that religion, you know the one, the one about Jesus?

 

[Autodidact]

That is so true Becky! I also believe that when we receive praise for things we do on earth we edify ourselves. I believe many Christians do things for others behind the scenes that most people have no idea they do.

As well as many nasty, dishonest and predatory things. Christians are no better than anyone else, in my experience.

 

[Autodidact]

Don't think you quite get it, God is the only one who truly knows their hearts, they may claim to be Christian, but only God knows their intents and their thoughts. The public sees their actions. So you will probably not get a single person here who says whether one is a Christian or not, that is up to God.

Yet I've had many self-proclaimed Christians confidently tell me who is NOT a Christian.

It does raise the question whether people-wh0-claim-to-be-Christian, like, say, you, are habitually dishonest...or deluded. Which is it? Otherwise why can't we rely on their own description?

 

[wizanda]

Christian has meaning it belongs to Paul, John and Simon's the stone (peter) ministries....just not Christ's as well.

Act 26:28
(28) Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1Pe 4:16
(16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

 

[Autodidact]

It's not like "Christian" is some magical, esoteric, ineffable category. It's a religion. You know, like Hindu, Muslim, etc. The people who belong to the Christian religion are called Christians. I mean, all the people here at RF who have the word "Christian" next to their name, like Beckysoup, should I not call them Christians?

 

[Bishka]

Why would someone falsely claim to be Christian?

They do not think they are falsely claiming to be a Christian, in the truest sense, they believe they are. Fred Phelps is one of them, he truly thinks he a Christian, but his actions speak otherwise.

Yet I've had many self-proclaimed Christians confidently tell me who is NOT a Christian.

Well the are True Christian(tm) not Christians then.

 

[Autodidact]

They do not think they are falsely claiming to be a Christian, in the truest sense, they believe they are. Fred Phelps is one of them, he truly thinks he a Christian, but his actions speak otherwise.

So they're self-deluded then. They believe they're Christian, but they're not. (btw, weird religion in which that's possible.) How do you know you're not one of them? And how's a poor atheist to tell? After all, Rev. Phelps, an ordained minister, says the same thing about you.

Well the are True Christian(tm) not Christians then.

Sorry, you lost me. typo?

 

[Inky]

Seems like the only problem here is using slightly different definitions. Here's my take on it (and I'm a Christian, in case it matters).

There is one definition for the word Christian which counts anyone who believes that they follow and worship Christ. In this way, it's about things that you think are true, and where you put your allegiances--with Jesus and a certain idea of God.

There is another definition which counts anyone who believes they follow Christ, and also loving your neighbor, being kind, generous, peaceful, basically good to people around you. When someone says that a person is "not a real Christian", usually they mean they are a Christian according to the first definition, but not according to the second. For example, many people would say Fred Phelps is Christian in one way (beliefs) but not in the other (actions). Or they may shorten it to "not Christian" and then it's implied they are talking about his actions.

Another way it's sometimes used is to say that the religion involves more detail than simply the divinity of Christ, and so a Christian is someone who accepts a specific set of beliefs centered around Jesus. Usually people will use this related to branches of the church, so they might say "Protestants aren't Christians" or "Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christians" or any other group, to mean that those groups believe things that aren't true or don't believe things that are true. For another example, someone may say Bishop Carlton Pearson is not Christian because the speaker thinks his church is founded on mistruths about Christ.

I'm not going to go through the whole list, but hopefully this is helpful.

 

[Bishka]

So they're self-deluded then. They believe they're Christian, but they're not. (btw, weird religion in which that's possible.)

That's possible in any faith, not just Christianity.

How do you know you're not one of them?

I do not tell others who is and is not a Christian and I just in God to make a just and merciful choice.

And how's a poor atheist to tell?

How do you think? Personally, I would look at the actions of a Christian, do they line up with Jesus Christ's teachings, do they act with Christ-like love and do they treat others as they would want to be treated. It's not that hard.

 

[athanasius]

All of this depends on how you term what a Christian is and what kind of criteria you use to make that desicion.

Here is my own criteria based on the solid theology of the Catholic church:

1) Christianity is a fact not a feeling. this means to be a Christian is a real thing not just a concept or a mere internal(heart) thing but a actual real solid thing as well(As by external covenant oaths and real grace recieved from them ie..Sacraments).

2) while I should never and cannot ever judge if anyone is going to heaven or hell or anyones heart(Jesus told us not to judge hearts), on a outward principle I can judge criteria that would make someone a "Formal Christian" or joined to Christ formally by covenant bond and sacred reality.

3) Some would say that a Christian is a person who loves, accepts and follows Jesus Christ and believes in his death and resurrection for us. While all of these elements are essential for christianity, I believe they are only a partial list. Anyone can say I'm a Christian I believe in Jesus Christ, Hersesies have done it for centuries just study the early church. The real question is do you believe in the Jesus of Nazareth that the historic Christian church affirms or do you believe in another Christ. This is something that St Paul wanred about in the book of Galatians.

For example,. Am I a "Christian" if I believe in Jesus Christ and his saving work but I believe that Jesus Christ is a magical donut?? Absolutley not! I must believe in the real Christ, the true Christ and true Gospel. In a likewise manner Many will call themselves Christians but will believe that Christ was merely Michael the archangel or a perfect man and not God almighty. Some believe that Christ was merely "A" God among many? Trinitarian Baptism is the formal gateway, covenant or entrance to formally becoming a christian as understood by the historic Christian church from ages past. So understanding and believing Christ Jesus true nature and formally covenanting with him is essential to understanding and believing the "real" Christ of history and being a true christian in the "formal sense".

4) This does not mean that the non-Christian or even pseudo-christian has no relationship with God. They very well do have one. It only means that in the true formal sense of the church, they are not Christians. In their hearts they may wish to please Christ and love Christ and Christ will judge them according to that. And through this, Christ may mystically unite them albeit impartially to the Church for salvation, but in the truest "formal" sense of the reality, they are not Formally Christian and we do not consider them to be.

That is my theological Catholic take on this issue. Feel free to dissagree!

 

[Callmepaul]

A Christian ... hmmmm! The Bible says it is by their fruits that you shall know them. Does Fred Phelps picketing the funerals of soldiers and gays exemplify Christ's love? There are those Christians who would tell you that it does. The same holds true for Reverend Falwell. Now, Gandhi certainly exemplifies Christ's love but has never professed Christ as his savior - another necessity to being Christian I believe.

Some of my bretheren say that if you put on the armor of Christ you do not sin again. Others say we are sinful creatures and continue that way - that it is going to Christ for constant forgiveness that marks us as Christians. So, depending on which side of that fence you walk then the Rev. Haggard would or would not be a Christian.

Somehow I can't visualize Christ pulling the lever to drop gas cylinders on the Jews at Triblinka. But then Rev. Butler of the Arian Nations church didn't see that as an obstacle. He would call Hitler a true Christian. (You forgot to put him on your list by the way.)

So you see, there are many rules about being in the club. Some members count some rules and gainsay others. Even having a score-card wouldn't do you much good because the names would be added and scratched off by club members faster than you could read them. I am afraid only the great score keeper could adequately answer the questions regarding your list. And we don't get to see that final score card until we leave this earth. Perhaps Gandhi will read them off to the new arrivals.

 

[ChristineES]

Just because someone calls himself something does not mean he is truly that. A lot of people call themselves Christians, but do they truly believe? Judas followed Jesus for up to 3 years and ended up not believing Him and betraying Him. He was able to fool the other apostles. A few people may put on an act for the benefit of themselves or others. But I can't say who each one is; a man will know his own heart, and God will also know a man's heart, but no one else truly knows.

 

[JayHawes]

Instead of trying to figure out who is a Christian, just be one yourself.

 

[Bishka]

Instead of trying to figure out who is a Christian, just be one yourself.

What a novel concept!

 

[Nanda]

Instead of trying to figure out who is a Christian, just be one yourself.

Instead of trying to figure out why atheists reject religion, just be one yourself. (I kid, I kid.)

 

[Papersock]

Instead of trying to figure out who is a Christian, just be one yourself.

How can you be sure you are being a Christian if no one is sure when somone is or is not a Christian? You have to know what something is before you can be one.

 

[ChristineES]

Instead of trying to figure out who is a Christian, just be one yourself.

Amen to that!:angel2: