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A huge problem with the JW religion:

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I’m not surprised. Their interpretations and history are seriously revisionist.


Fact--In the Hebrew language--Elohim= NEVER plural for the true living God)--- Your teachers have lied to you.
Or if you mean--Let us make man in our image--The Father( God) speaks to his master worker of Prov 8. That is the -us- .
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I’m not surprised. Their interpretations and history are seriously revisionist.


Fact--In the Hebrew language--Elohim= NEVER plural for the true living God)--- Your teachers have lied to you.
Or if you mean--Let us make man in our image--The Father( God) speaks to his master worker of Prov 8. That is the -us- .
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
This video shows the heartache that the JW policy of dissociation can cause:


Obviously the Atheist Experience is not going to be pro-JW. But they treated this ex-JW with far more kindness than the man's church did.



Those that do not know God, do not live by his will. His word is clear--Do not even eat a meal with such that are unrepentant once a baptized brother or sister. Did not exclude family members. The only 2 choices given by God for an unrepentant brother or sister was--stoned to death( OT) or disfellowshipping( NT) -- Which do you choose for your family member who became unrepentant?
The only ones who complain are the ones who do not know Gods will. That is sad, because Jesus assured all--Only those living now to do his Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom( be saved)( ,att 7:21-23)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Fact--In the Hebrew language--Elohim= NEVER plural for the true living God)--- Your teachers have lied to you.
Or if you mean--Let us make man in our image--The Father( God) speaks to his master worker of Prov 8. That is the -us- .
1) It is a fact that Elohim can be plural.
2) Proverbs wasn’t written until much, much later. Nothing in Genesis can refer to something in Proverbs.

Sticking your head in the sand and claiming that highly-regarded scholars are “lying” just to cover your own ignorance on the subject doesn't change facts.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Fact--In the Hebrew language--Elohim= NEVER plural for the true living God)--- Your teachers have lied to you.
Or if you mean--Let us make man in our image--The Father( God) speaks to his master worker of Prov 8. That is the -us- .
It is better to trust actual scholars than those trying to reinterpret the Bible to match their personal myths.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Those that do not know God, do not live by his will. His word is clear--Do not even eat a meal with such that are unrepentant once a baptized brother or sister. Did not exclude family members. The only 2 choices given by God for an unrepentant brother or sister was--stoned to death( OT) or disfellowshipping( NT) -- Which do you choose for your family member who became unrepentant?
The only ones who complain are the ones who do not know Gods will. That is sad, because Jesus assured all--Only those living now to do his Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom( be saved)( ,att 7:21-23)
Since your God almost definitely does not exist, and that is without knowing any details about him you are in effect saying that you do not know God. You should examine your faith rationally and see if it holds water or not. I can assure you that it does not. You believe in a very evil version of God. Why do you believe in a God that is evil? Think about it. There is no need for such activities if there really is a God. Those are the sorts of activities needed to support a false God.
 

TiggerII

Active Member
1) It is a fact that Elohim can be plural.
2) Proverbs wasn’t written until much, much later. Nothing in Genesis can refer to something in Proverbs.

Sticking your head in the sand and claiming that highly-regarded scholars are “lying” just to cover your own ignorance on the subject doesn't change facts.



ELOHIM
Elohim when used for God is not plural in a numerical sense.


Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:

“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.


The New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:

ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.


A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:

“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now [1865] a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”

Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., p. 399, says:

"That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:

“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.


The New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:

ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

To show how ancient Jewish scholars themselves understood this we can look at the work of the seventy Hebrew scholars who translated the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (OT) into Greek several centuries before the time of Christ. The Greek language did not use the “plural of excellence” that the Hebrew did. So, if we see a plural used in the Greek Septuagint, it was really intended to represent more than one individual!

So how is elohim rendered in the Greek Septuagint by those ancient Hebrew scholars? Whenever it clearly refers to Jehovah God, it is always found to be singular in number (just as in New Testament Greek): theos ! Whenever elohim clearly refers to a plural (in number) noun, it is always found to be plural in number in Greek (just as in the New Testament Greek): theoi or theois (“gods”).

For example: “I am the Lord thy God [elohim - plural of excellence in Hebrew becomes theos - singular in the Greek Septuagint]” - Ex. 20:2. And “know that the Lord he is God [as always, the plural elohim, as applied to the God of Israel, becomes the singular, theos in the Septuagint] he made us...” - Ps. 100:3.

But when elohim really does mean plural in number, we see it rendered into the Greek plural for “gods” in the Septuagint: “Thou shalt not worship their gods [elohim in Hebrew becomes theois - plural in the Greek Septuagint], nor serve them .... And thou shalt serve the Lord thy God [singular - Greek].” - Ex. 23:24-25.

We see exactly the same thing happening for translations of the plural elohim in the ancient Septuagint and in the Christian NT.

Yes, all the NT Bible writers, whether quoting from the OT or writing their own God-inspired NT scriptures, always used the singular “God” (theos) in NT Greek when speaking of the only true God of the Bible. (If the plural form had been used for the only true God, we would even discover a new “trinity” at John 10:34.)

It is absolutely incredible that John, Paul, and the other inspired NT writers would not have used the plural Greek form to translate the plural Hebrew form of “God” if they had intended in any degree to imply that God was in any way more than one person!
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
1) It is a fact that Elohim can be plural.
2) Proverbs wasn’t written until much, much later. Nothing in Genesis can refer to something in Proverbs.

Sticking your head in the sand and claiming that highly-regarded scholars are “lying” just to cover your own ignorance on the subject doesn't change facts.


The Hebrew scholars say different from your scholars. Who do you think knows Hebrew better?
Yes Elohim is plural in some cases, but in Hebrew-NEVER for the true living God.
Whom did God create all other things through=Jesus. But not called Jesus in the OT. The being speaking at Proverbs 8= Gods master worker is the being who God sent to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal. All evidence says its Michael. God sent his best. He explains at Prov 8 how difficult it was for God to create him direct. It is not YHWH speaking at Prov 8, It is the being he sent.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Since your God almost definitely does not exist, and that is without knowing any details about him you are in effect saying that you do not know God. You should examine your faith rationally and see if it holds water or not. I can assure you that it does not. You believe in a very evil version of God. Why do you believe in a God that is evil? Think about it. There is no need for such activities if there really is a God. Those are the sorts of activities needed to support a false God.


God isn't evil/ Mortals kicked him in the teeth by the rebellion in Eden. He handed them-eternal life on a silver platter. one thing he said do not do-They failed God not the other way around. All the wealth combined couldn't pay the price for that value. But they in turn kicked him in the teeth. So the issues raised against him are being resolved, once and for all time. Its almost done.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
God isn't evil/ Mortals kicked him in the teeth by the rebellion in Eden. He handed them-eternal life on a silver platter. one thing he said do not do-They failed God not the other way around. All the wealth combined couldn't pay the price for that value. But they in turn kicked him in the teeth. So the issues raised against him are being resolved, once and for all time. Its almost done.
Then you just claimed that your version of God does not exist. The problem is that anything close to a literal interpretation of the Bible gives you an evil God. He is also an incompetent God and a lying God. Why would you worship such a beast?

EDIT: And of course the Garden of Eden story is a myth. Unless you want to claim that your God is a liar as well.
 
Last edited:

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
ELOHIM
Elohim when used for God is not plural in a numerical sense.


Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:

“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.


The New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:

ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.


A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:

“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now [1865] a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”

Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., p. 399, says:

"That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:

“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.


The New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:

ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

To show how ancient Jewish scholars themselves understood this we can look at the work of the seventy Hebrew scholars who translated the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (OT) into Greek several centuries before the time of Christ. The Greek language did not use the “plural of excellence” that the Hebrew did. So, if we see a plural used in the Greek Septuagint, it was really intended to represent more than one individual!

So how is elohim rendered in the Greek Septuagint by those ancient Hebrew scholars? Whenever it clearly refers to Jehovah God, it is always found to be singular in number (just as in New Testament Greek): theos ! Whenever elohim clearly refers to a plural (in number) noun, it is always found to be plural in number in Greek (just as in the New Testament Greek): theoi or theois (“gods”).

For example: “I am the Lord thy God [elohim - plural of excellence in Hebrew becomes theos - singular in the Greek Septuagint]” - Ex. 20:2. And “know that the Lord he is God [as always, the plural elohim, as applied to the God of Israel, becomes the singular, theos in the Septuagint] he made us...” - Ps. 100:3.

But when elohim really does mean plural in number, we see it rendered into the Greek plural for “gods” in the Septuagint: “Thou shalt not worship their gods [elohim in Hebrew becomes theois - plural in the Greek Septuagint], nor serve them .... And thou shalt serve the Lord thy God [singular - Greek].” - Ex. 23:24-25.

We see exactly the same thing happening for translations of the plural elohim in the ancient Septuagint and in the Christian NT.

Yes, all the NT Bible writers, whether quoting from the OT or writing their own God-inspired NT scriptures, always used the singular “God” (theos) in NT Greek when speaking of the only true God of the Bible. (If the plural form had been used for the only true God, we would even discover a new “trinity” at John 10:34.)

It is absolutely incredible that John, Paul, and the other inspired NT writers would not have used the plural Greek form to translate the plural Hebrew form of “God” if they had intended in any degree to imply that God was in any way more than one person!
But I’m not talking about LXX translations — or any other translations. Nor am I talking about NT interpretations. Or modern apologetics. I’m talking about what’s written in the text, itself. “Elohim” is plural, as the text comes to us from Sumerian myth.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Hebrew scholars say different from your scholars. Who do you think knows Hebrew better?
Yes Elohim is plural in some cases, but in Hebrew-NEVER for the true living God
That’s a theological — not a linguistic analysis. I’m talking linguistics.

Whom did God create all other things through=Jesus
Not according to Genesis.
The being speaking at Proverbs 8= Gods master worker is the being who God sent to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal
Nope. The writer of Proverbs had no concept of Jesus. He wasn’t writing about Jesus.
 

TiggerII

Active Member
But I’m not talking about LXX translations — or any other translations. Nor am I talking about NT interpretations. Or modern apologetics. I’m talking about what’s written in the text, itself. “Elohim” is plural, as the text comes to us from Sumerian myth.

When even so many modern trinitarian scholars (who normally take advantage of any word, verse, etc, which can be distorted into a trinity 'proof') admit the probability of the 'plural of majesty' meaning of elohim when used for God, your opinion becomes less than persuasive. The same understanding by Jewish translators 2200 years ago (and inspired NT writers in the first century A.D.) makes your opinion fatally flawed.

Even The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1986, tells us:

Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. ‘gods’). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural elohim (e.g. Jdg. 11:24; 1 Ki. 11:5; 2 Ki. 1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the plural of fullness; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God.” - p. 67, Vol. 2.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Then you just claimed that your version of God does not exist. The problem is that anything close to a literal interpretation of the Bible gives you an evil God. He is also an incompetent God and a lying God. Why would you worship such a beast?

EDIT: And of course the Garden of Eden story is a myth. Unless you want to claim that your God is a liar as well.


You reason falsely. Maybe when you can create a universe with billions of living beings you can understand. Until then it takes faith. You cannot even create a single blade of grass.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
That’s a theological — not a linguistic analysis. I’m talking linguistics.


Not according to Genesis.

Nope. The writer of Proverbs had no concept of Jesus. He wasn’t writing about Jesus.


I said the being speaking at Proverbs 8( it is not YHVH speaking) is the one whom God sent= his master worker=Jesus according to the NT. The one whom God created all other things through, but created that being direct-(first and last)-- Many prophecies in the OT concerning the one whom God sends. So I would say Solomon knew.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I said the being speaking at Proverbs 8( it is not YHVH speaking) is the one whom God sent= his master worker=Jesus according to the NT. The one whom God created all other things through, but created that being direct-(first and last)-- Many prophecies in the OT concerning the one whom God sends. So I would say Solomon knew.
1)Solomon didn’t write Proverbs.
2) There is no “according to the NT” where OT exegesis is concerned.
 
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