A Universe from Nothing?

[Rick O'Shez]

Did the Buddha experience spiritual awakening? Is he not referred to as 'The Awakened One'?

You're a new-ager, so I don't know why you keep going on about Buddhist stuff. Your DIY religion is actually much closer to Hindu ideas, though you have muddled in a load of pseudo-science.

I am not interested in your new-age parody of Buddhist teachings, and your use of Zen clichés is laughable. A real Zennie wouldn't touch your convoluted metaphysical dogma with a bargepole.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

How do you verify what the physical phenomenon sounds like if not via perception? We know that the physical phenomenon is technically pressure waves, but there is no actual sound of a tree falling; there is only the pressure waves. The recognition that the pressure waves so generated is in fact those of a falling tree is unknown until heard by ear and brain.

Do you accept that the pressure waves exist, independent of human perception?

Do you accept that it is necessary for the pressure waves to be present in order for human perception to occur?

None of this supports your dogmatic belief in "Cosmic Consciousness", you really are wasting your time.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That is not the question. The question is: what is the difference between the mind that sees that all phenomena are empty of self-nature, and one which does not?

I have answered your question, which you only asked to avoid answering mine. Stop playing childish games.

Just answer the question I put to you. Do you claim that sunyata is compatible with your "Cosmic Consciousness"? Yes or no?

Your attempts to avoid answering this question are most revealing.

 

[ArtieE]

You can awaken from only thinking yourself awake, when you are, in reality, asleep.

When you are asleep, dreaming, you do not know you are right . You think the dream is reality.

I may be dreaming since people like you can't be real. I think technically dreams with people like you in them are called nightmares. It's a nightmare when one is trying to talk some sense into people and absolutely nothing works.

 

[ArtieE]

How do you verify the sound that a falling tree makes if you are not present?

Any rational person understands that a falling tree makes sound waves in the air.

 

[ArtieE]

How do you verify what the physical phenomenon sounds like if not via perception? We know that the physical phenomenon is technically pressure waves, but there is no actual sound of a tree falling; there is only the pressure waves.

The pressure waves is the sound. For the last time: Sound is "a periodic disturbance in the pressure or density of a fluid or in the elastic strain of a solid, produced by a vibrating object." See Collins English Dictionary online. How many times do we have to repeat that before you get it?

 

[ArtieE]

What does sound look like?

 

[Thief]

That is not the question. The question is: what is the difference between the mind that sees that all phenomena are empty of self-nature, and one which does not?

that's not the question....note the title of this thread

and the question you keep running is a line drawn by teachers to sort out the students
if you are sure the tree makes a sound.....even if no one is there.....
you can be taught

if you think someone has to be there....you will need to be lead by the hand into the forest
and left there until a tree falls on you

 

[godnotgod]

You're a new-ager, so I don't know why you keep going on about Buddhist stuff...

We were talking about reality and emptiness, remember?

 

[godnotgod]

Do you accept that the pressure waves exist, independent of human perception?

Yes, that is what I have been saying all along.

Do you accept that it is necessary for the pressure waves to be present in order for human perception to occur?

Yes, of course, but ear and brain must also be present for sound to occur. The pressure waves are detected by the ear (receptor) and brain (processor) and heard as the sound of "falling tree". But without ear and brain, there are only pressure waves, without them registering and processing as "falling tree" sound. IOW, there is no actualized sound until heard by ear and brain:

THE PHYSIOLOGY OF HEARING
The process of hearing begins with the occurrence of a sound. Sound is initiated when an event moves and causes a motion or vibration in air. When this air movement stimulates the ear, a sound is heard.

In the human ear, a sound wave is transmitted through four separate mediums along the auditory system before a sound is perceived: in the outer ear—air, in the middle ear— mechanical, in the inner ear liquid and to the brain—neural.

Sound Transmission through the Outer Ear
Air transmitted sound waves are directed toward the delicate hearing mechanisms with the help of the outer ear, first by the pinna, which gently funnels sound waves into the ear canal, then by the ear canal.

Sound Transmission through the Middle Ear
When air movement strikes the tympanic membrane, the tympanic membrane or eardrum moves. At this point, the energy generated through a sound wave is transferred from a medium of air to that which is solid in the middle ear. The ossicular chain of the middle ear connects to the eardrum via the malleus, so that any motion of the eardrum sets the three little bones of the ossicular chain into motion.

Sound Transmission through the Inner Ear
The ossicular chain transfers energy from a solid medium to the fluid medium of the inner ear via the stapes. The stapes is attached to the oval window. Movement of the oval window creates motion in the cochlear fluid and along the Basilar membrane. Motion along the basilar membrane excites frequency specific areas of the Organ of Corti, which in turn stimulates a series of nerve endings.

Sound Transmission to the Brain
With the initiation of the nerve impulses, another change in medium occurs: from fluid to neural. Nerve impulses are relayed through the VIII C.N., through various nuclei along the auditory pathway to areas to the brain. It is the brain that interprets the neural impulses and creates a thought, picture, or other recognized symbol.

Until the brain interprets the impulses, there is no sound.

http://www.workplaceintegra.com/hearing-articles/Ear-anatomy.html

Bottom line: sound is not sound until heard.

 

[godnotgod]

I have answered your question, which you only asked to avoid answering mine. Stop playing childish games.

Just answer the question I put to you. Do you claim that sunyata is compatible with your "Cosmic Consciousness"? Yes or no?

Your attempts to avoid answering this question are most revealing.

I knew it. You don't know the difference.

Cosmic Consciousness is not the issue here. Start a new thread.

 

[godnotgod]

The pressure waves is the sound. For the last time: Sound is "a periodic disturbance in the pressure or density of a fluid or in the elastic strain of a solid, produced by a vibrating object." See Collins English Dictionary online. How many times do we have to repeat that before you get it?

How many time do I have to repeat that the description of sound is not sound. Sound must be experienced as such in order to be sound, and that experience is via HEARING, via EAR and BRAIN. Get it?

When you go to a restaurant, do you eat the menu instead of the meal?

 

[godnotgod]

What does sound look like?

Nice video of the graphical DESCRIPTION of sound, but graphical descriptions are not the actual sound itself. When the hands were clapped, I heard sound. The sound occurred when my ear/brain received and processed the pressure waves generated by the clapping hands.

BTW, the video demonstrated two hands clapping.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

 

[godnotgod]

that's not the question....note the title of this thread

and the question you keep running is a line drawn by teachers to sort out the students
if you are sure the tree makes a sound.....even if no one is there.....
you can be taught

if you think someone has to be there....you will need to be lead by the hand into the forest
and left there until a tree falls on you

What a thoroughly idiotic, senseless, and contradictory post!

The question I posed to Rick was not the thread's title, nor was it meant to be.

 

[ArtieE]

Nice video of the graphical DESCRIPTION of sound, but graphical descriptions are not the actual sound itself.

ROTFL What you see in the video is the actual SOUND! You SEE the pressure waves in the air. That's the whole point of the video. You are making yourself look like a complete idiot.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

There's no such thing as one hand clapping. The definition of clapping specifies two hands.

 

[godnotgod]

The magazine Scientific American corroborated the technical aspect of this question, while leaving out the philosophic side, a year later when they asked the question slightly reworded, "If a tree were to fall on an uninhabited island, would there be any sound?" And gave a more technical answer, "Sound is vibration, transmitted to our senses through the mechanism of the ear, and recognized as sound only at our nerve centers. The falling of the tree or any other disturbance will produce vibration of the air. If there be no ears to hear, there will be no sound."

What is the difference between what something is, and how it appears? — e.g., "sound is the variation of pressure that propagates through matter as a wave"
Perhaps the most important topic the riddle offers is the division between perception of an object and how an object really is. If a tree exists outside of perception then there is no way for us to know that the tree exists. So then, what do we mean by 'existence', what is the difference between perception and reality? Also, people may also say, if the tree exists outside of perception (as common sense would dictate), then it will produce sound waves. However, these sound waves will not actually sound like anything. Sound as it is mechanically understood will occur, but sound as it is understood by sensation will not occur. So then, how is it known that 'sound as it is mechanically understood' will occur if that sound is not perceived?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

 

[godnotgod]

ROTFL What you see in the video is the actual SOUND! You SEE the pressure waves in the air. That's the whole point of the video. You are making yourself look like a complete idiot.

DUH! Mute the volume while watching the video and there is no sound, proving that ear/brain are necessary to the hearing of pressure waves as sound. Just seeing the pressure waves in the air is not the sound of two hands clapping. Now where is the idiocy?

There's no such thing as one hand clapping. The definition of clapping specifies two hands.

The sound of one hand clapping is a famous Zen koan. When you hear this sound, you will realize your own enlightenment.

http://deoxy.org/koan/21

 

[godnotgod]

I may be dreaming since people like you can't be real. I think technically dreams with people like you in them are called nightmares. It's a nightmare when one is trying to talk some sense into people and absolutely nothing works.

People who are asleep and dreaming, while thinking themselves awake, think that their conditioned minds represent reality, and run around trying to talk their 'sense' into others.

 

[ArtieE]

The magazine Scientific American corroborated the technical aspect of this question, while leaving out the philosophic side, a year later when they asked the question slightly reworded, "If a tree were to fall on an uninhabited island, would there be any sound?" And gave a more technical answer, "Sound is vibration,

Sound is vibration.

transmitted to our senses through the mechanism of the ear and recognized as sound

Recognized as sound! Sound is sound whether it's recognized as sound or not. As we just saw above sound is vibration.

only at our nerve centers. The falling of the tree or any other disturbance will produce vibration of the air. If there be no ears to hear, there will be no sound."

This is of course nonsense and contradicts the previous statement Sound is vibration.

What is the difference between what something is, and how it appears? — e.g., "sound is the variation of pressure that propagates through matter as a wave"
Perhaps the most important topic the riddle offers is the division between perception of an object and how an object really is. If a tree exists outside of perception then there is no way for us to know that the tree exists.

Doesn't matter to an existing tree if we know it exists or not. It still exists.

So then, what do we mean by 'existence', what is the difference between perception and reality?

The difference between perception and reality is that what is real is real and the reality of it has nothing to do with how we perceive it.

 

[godnotgod]

Any rational person understands that a falling tree makes sound waves in the air.

He understands and verifies the pressure waves as sound via his hearing. Until he hears them, there are no sounds; there are only pressure waves.