A Universe from Nothing?

[Ben Dhyan]

Your saying ontology doesn't exist, it is my understanding that even math represents something real. For example one apple plus two apples equals three apples is a mathematical concept representing real objects. I'm talking about reality itself too, we have to use words to describe reality, that doesn't make words meaningless.

No one said that ontology, maths, and words, are meaningless....I am saying that they all arise in the human mind to represent some perceived or conceived reality...but they are not that reality which they are meant to represent...

This universe exists...but all the maths, descriptions, and knowledge in existence can not apprehend it... Your conceptual three apples will never be equal to three real apples... And your conceptual three dimensions of space will never be equal to actual space.....which is intrinsically dimensionless...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The difference is the that the concept of Gravity is a real force..the concept of time is not....it is merely the relative measurement of the persistence of existence... That is not to say it is not an important conceptual idea in the context of evolution...but a force it is not...

Atomic clocks are based on atomic physics, you can't get much more fundamental than that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You are talking about conceptual reality...a proxy that stands for reality...I am talking about reality itself...which has no dimensions as it is a unity...

If you drop a brick on your foot it hurts. Hard object accelerates under gravity and impacts with soft object, activating pain receptors. Is that "reality"?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Atomic clocks are based on atomic forces, you can't get much more fundamental than that.

So what has that got to do with the persistence of existence to exist?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If you drop a brick on your foot it hurts. Hard object accelerates under gravity and impacts with soft object, activating pain receptors. Is that "reality"?

Everything that happens is reality.....but the point is that talking about a dropping a brick on your foot does not hurt or cause pain....it is only a description...and is not real except as a conceptual description...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So what has that got to do with the persistence of existence to exist?

Time is a fundamental property of the universe. Arrow of time, entropy, etc.

I get tired of the mystical twaddle about time being purely subjective.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Everything that happens is reality.....but the point is that talking about a dropping a brick on your foot does not hurt or cause pain....it is only a description...and is not real except as a conceptual description...

I can assure you that dropping a brick on your foot is very "real", I used to work in the building trade. The description is irrelevant, the brick falls regardless and the foot hurts.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Time is a fundamental property of the universe. Arrow of time, entropy, etc.

I get tired of the mystical twaddle about time being purely subjective.

You make the claim...arrow of time...show me this arrow?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I can assure you that dropping a brick on your foot is very "real", I used to work in the building trade. The description is irrelevant, the brick falls regardless and the foot hurts.

But your description of it does not hurt....is your foot hurting when you describe how it hurt you?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But your description of it does not hurt....is your foot hurting when you describe how it hurt you?

There is the sensation of pain when the brick lands on my foot. A physical sensation, not dependent on descriptions.

 

[idav]

No one said that ontology, maths, and words, are meaningless....I am saying that they all arise in the human mind to represent some perceived or conceived reality...but they are not that reality which they are meant to represent...

This universe exists...but all the maths, descriptions, and knowledge in existence can not apprehend it... Your conceptual three apples will never be equal to three real apples... And your conceptual three dimensions of space will never be equal to actual space.....which is intrinsically dimensionless...

Your pretty much saying words maths and ontology are meaningless. You don't even believe in a simple thing like two apples minus one apples makes for a hungrier person. Your not even debating anything is wrong just playing semantic games that no words can convey reality. If that were true there wouldn't be a reason to discuss anything. Why even bring it up? You can't have a debate about science without resorting to ontological issues? Any argument in the world can be countered with "no it's a matrix" but that's hardly helpful in any real discussion.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There is the sensation of pain when the brick lands on my foot. Sensation, not concept.

You keep telling us that but your words are not causing anything....words are only mental constructs....they do not of themselves cause anything...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You make the claim...arrow of time...show me this arrow?

Here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time)

Or just observe what's going on around you, entropy is pretty obvious in everyday life.

Time is not a purely subjective experience, it is a part of the fabric of the cosmos.

The subjective experience of timelessness is irrelevant here.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Your pretty much saying words maths and ontology are meaningless. You don't even believe in a simple thing like two apples minus one apples makes for a hungrier person. Your not even debating anything is wrong just playing semantic games that no words can convey reality. If that were true there wouldn't be a reason to discuss anything. Why even bring it up? You can't have a debate about science without resorting to ontological issues? Any argument in the world can be countered with "no it's a matrix" but that's hardly helpful in any real discussion.

You misunderstand....the conceptual mind has an important place to play in life...but conceptual descriptions and interpretations have a symbolic purpose...to communicate ideas etc.,...it is not ever the actual reality it is describing or interpreting...

I am not playing games....if you want to apprehend reality you will need to stop conceptualizing and or interpreting reality and go direct through integration of you mind with reality itself..

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You keep telling us that but your words are not causing anything....words are only mental constructs....they do not of themselves cause anything...

You're not making sense. I am simply saying that the brick falls and the foot hurts regardless of the words we use to describe it. Same with the sun rising and falling or the tides or the weather, all this stuff happens regardless of the words we use.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time)

Or just observe what's going on around you, entropy is pretty obvious in everyday life.

Time is not a subjective experience, it is a part of the fabric of the cosmos.

The subjective experience of timelessness is irrelevant here.

It is all conceptualization....the concept of the arrow of time is just that...the reality though does not match...there is no time force or mechanism involved in the real continuing to be real......existence continuing to exist is just the nature of reality.... If you think otherwise, explain in your own words how time acts to make reality continue to exist?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am simply saying that the brick falls and the foot hurts regardless of the words we use to describe it. Same with the sun rising and falling or the tides or the weather, all this stuff happens regardless of the words we use.

So that is self evident in general conversation....what is your point?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is all conceptualization....the concept of the arrow of time is just that...the reality though does not match...there is no time force or mechanism involved in the real continuing to be real......existence continuing to exist is just the nature of reality.... If you think otherwise, explain in your own words how time acts to make reality continue to exist?

You clearly don't understand the science and/or haven't closely observed the world around you. Entropy IS reality.

 

[idav]

You misunderstand....the conceptual mind has an important place to play in life...but conceptual descriptions and interpretations have a symbolic purpose...to communicate ideas etc.,...it is not ever the actual reality it is describing or interpreting...

I am not playing games....if you want to apprehend reality you will need to stop conceptualizing and or interpreting reality and go direct through integration of you mind with reality itself..

I'm not misunderstanding, your describing my objection well. Even if the second part could be accomplished, whatever integrating the mind with reality itself is supposed to mean, you still will argue the first problem of having to use words and concepts when conveying to others. So your basic argument is equivalent to "your wrong cause your using words and stuff".

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So that is self evident in general conversation....what is your point?

Your obsession with concepts is still missing the point.