A Universe from Nothing?

[YmirGF]

I'm not selling....it's all a gift.. I'm relieved I only slightly annoyed you YmirG, I really love to see you happy and firendly.... No it doesn't disturb me that others see things differently...but I can't pretend to believe in their view point if I see it as limited... It works both ways....it seems some people are annoyed and disturbed at what I say.....until they get it...

Again, you pretend that some of us did not look at things the way you do. Some of us moved beyond that limited rigid framework into unknown territory.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Not so sure, Ben. By all estimates these days, the physical universe appears to be quite limitless and expanding...

My point is that time and dimensions are abstractions of limitlessness in order to do be able to do conceptual work....one can't do much with limitlessness....it needs to be circumscribed...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

...I'm not selling....it's all a gift...but I can't pretend to believe in their view point if I see it as limited... ...it seems some people are annoyed and disturbed at what I say.....until they get it...

It's the air of superiority I struggle with, like you always want to give the impression that you see something the rest of us don't. What you've said here is an example of it actually.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Subjective inner experiences are the abstraction. The notion of "underlying reality" here is highly questionable.

Who mentioned subjective inner experiences? By 'underlying reality' I mean non-conceptual reality....not the interpretation or description of reality...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Again, you pretend that some of us did not look at things the way you do. Some of us moved beyond that limited rigid framework into unknown territory.

Haha...this is my old YmirGF....there is no humbler a soul in all of Egypt...

 

[YmirGF]

My point is that time and dimensions are abstractions of limitlessness in order to do be able to do conceptual work....one can't do much with limitlessness....it needs to be circumscribed...

How on earth would you know what one can do or cannot do in a limitless environment, Ben?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Who mentioned subjective inner experiences? By 'underlying reality' I mean non-conceptual reality....not the interpretation or description of reality...

There is no such thing as "reality" , just "our reality", the stuff in our minds. It's always subjective.

 

[serp777]

You said this before......so how do you think entropy makes reality continue to exist?

Can you give it a rest with the elipses? Just use a comma. Its just obnoxious to see you spaming elipses all over the place. Entropy doesn't make reality continue to exist. Entropy is the scientific explanation that the number of permutations of particles increases as time continues. The universe tends to disorder.

 

[YmirGF]

There is no such thing as "reality" , just "our reality", the stuff in our minds. It's always subjective.

I tend to look at it a bit differently, Rick. I do believe there is objective (shared) reality and subjective (personal) reality. The twain do not necessarily meet.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It's the air of superiority I struggle with, like you always want to give the impression that you see something the rest of us don't. What you've said here is an example of it actually.

Hey...as I've said before...I do so love myself...and my RF friends of which Norman Ricochet is one....and enjoy a little tease....as you also do I see..

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Can you give it a rest with the elipses? Just use a comma. Its just obnoxious to see you spaming elipses all over the place. Entropy doesn't make reality continue to exist. Entropy is the scientific explanation that the number of permutations of particles increases as time continues. The universe tends to disorder.

Spamming huh? I guess that means you do not agree with my understanding. Ok, I'll bite...how do you think entropy causes existence to continue to exist?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I tend to look at it a bit differently, Rick. I do believe there is objective (shared) reality and subjective (personal) reality. The twain do not necessarily meet.

I certainly believe there is a universe "out there", which science tries to understand at various scales. The question marks are around the process of perception, and the assumptions we make based on our preconceptions, the way we see things, the way we process the input from our senses.

Our sensory input is very limited, we can only see within the visible spectrum for example. We can detect and make use of the rest of the EM spectrum of course, but that is second-hand information. A doctor can look at a patient's x-ray for example, but the doctor is still just seeing a visual image, not the patients bones. We use infra red on TV remotes, we know it's working because the TV channel changes, but we still cannot actually see the light.

Not to mention all the stuff science is still struggling to detect, dark matter, dark energy and so on.

 

[godnotgod]

Science is showing us the truth about nature. How is that not understanding? If there are still questions science is the best shot at getting answers.

Science does not know what the Universe is. It only knows how it behaves, and can predict some of that behavior. It looks at it as if it is some mechanical device. Data and Facts are not what the nature of Reality is.

 

[serp777]

Spamming huh? I guess that means you do not agree with my understanding. Ok, I'll bite...how do you think entropy causes existence to continue to exist?

Yeah, look at your post, #571. You have 5 ellipsesin one sentence. That has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with you understanding, it's just getting tiresome seeing ellipses all over the place for the same reason it's obnoxious to see caps lock all over the place. Also, I never said entropy causes existence to continue existing. Entropy is the scientific explanation that the universe moves to disorder. Nobody knows why the universe continues to exist as opposed to falling apart, and it may actually become unstable and fall apart thus moving to a lower energy state. It's likely nobody will know how the universe continues to exist. it may be the case that there are an infinite number of universes that exist, which means that we have to be in this universe because all universes exist. We are in a possible universe and thus we exist. Some universe may fall apart more quickly, or some in a very long time. That's one explanation but there's not hard evidence that it's true.

I would submit that there couldn't ever be nothing, however. How could nothing exist? That would be a contradiction. Therefore there always has to be something, or perhaps everything.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yeah, look at your post, #571. You have 5 ellipsesin one sentence. That has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with you understanding, it's just getting tiresome seeing ellipses all over the place for the same reason it's obnoxious to see caps lock all over the place. Also, I never said entropy causes existence to continue existing. Entropy is the scientific explanation that the universe moves to disorder. Nobody knows why the universe continues to exist as opposed to falling apart, and it may actually become unstable and fall apart thus moving to a lower energy state. It's likely nobody will know how the universe continues to exist. it may be the case that there are an infinite number of universes that exist, which means that we have to be in this universe because all universes exist. We are in a possible universe and thus we exist. Some universe may fall apart more quickly, or some in a very long time. That's one explanation but there's not hard evidence that it's true.

I would submit that there couldn't ever be nothing, however. How could nothing exist? That would be a contradiction. Therefore there always has to be something, or perhaps everything.

Get over the ellipses....they never hurt anyone.... and it sort of reflects how I speak. please forgive me...

I do not understand why you are raising the issue of entropy....it is irrelevant.. It was Ricochet who raised the issue and he never replied to my question...

We are in total agreement on the issue of nothing.... smart man...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

How could nothing exist?

Indeed. I don't see "nothing" as a useful idea or a productive line of enquiry.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

We are in total agreement on the issue of nothing.... smart man...

So if I agree with you will I also be "smart"?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

How on earth would you know what one can do or cannot do in a limitless environment, Ben?

Well first of all try measuring it....how big would one half of limitlessness be? Sort of makes maths difficult. However by abstracting a circumscribed limited area or volume.....we can now divide it into manageable finite pieces that can be measured... Same with eternity...how long a time is half an eternity? ...but if we abstract a beginning to existence...we can the divide the duration into manageable finite units of time measurement...

 

[idav]

Science does not know what the Universe is. It only knows how it behaves, and can predict some of that behavior. It looks at it as if it is some mechanical device. Data and Facts are not what the nature of Reality is.

Sorry to hear the standard model and actually being able to observe each component as predicted is unsatisfactory to you. What is nature of reality to you, seems like physics has a pretty good handle on it by explaining how things work at the microscopic level.

A claim that science must be able to observe the immaterial is nonsense. Everything "immaterial" can be tied to an observable or nobody could know it exists and if the immaterial doesn't tie to anything observable then it may as well be nonexistent.

 

[godnotgod]

...like you always want to give the impression that you see something the rest of us don't

What the prisoners in Plato's Cave said to the one escaped prisoner who went outside the Cave to see the Sun for the first time.

Remember 2001: A Space Odyssey? As the last surviving astronaut is attempting to land the shuttle onto the tumbling monolith, he comes face to face with it:

“The thing's hollow—it goes on forever—and—oh my God!—it's full of stars! ...

Now, can you imagine the guys back at Mission Conrol saying:

'...like you always want to give the impression that you see something the rest of us don't... we don't believe you, so pack it up and get yer arse back home pronto, you heah, boy?'