A Universe from Nothing?

[loverofhumanity]

If God were clear as the Sun we wouldn't have ten thousand contradictory religions in the world.
I think this 'inner vision" is, in fact, just ingrained conventionalism.
You were raised with this notion, it was instilled before you developed any sort of logical firewall or ability for critical analysis. Had you been raised an atheistic Buddhist or jungle animist your gut would be telling you these views were obviously the correct ones.

I was not raised into the Baha'i Faith. I investigated it. At first I opposed it and was against it but reason and logic forced me to accept it. After that I considered I had found a great treasure.

I can tell you that this is not what people think and they should not judge by previous standards.

Yes I now have inner vision to see the truth and I see it abundantly clearly even as the sun. The fact others are deprived of this is very, very unfortunate.

The Baha'i Teachings have resolved in my mind all the conflicting creeds and religions and now I have a clear understanding of what and why they occurred and as a result complete certitude and contentment. I have found what everyone seeks, true happiness but I cannot give it to others as they must find it for themselves.

 

[Willamena]

Actually, you don't "know" there is a god, loverofhumanity.

What you actually have, is "faith" and "belief" that there is a god. Meaning you "believe" there is a god.

There is a distinction between "believing" and "knowing".

The very distinction suggests that you cannot tell another what they don't know.

With religion, it is all about "believing", and doesn't matter if what you believe in, is real or not, so you just accept it as if it was "real", hence this acceptance what people called "conviction" or "faith".

Knowing is different in the sense that it requires confirmation or verification.

The "knowledge" you think you have - all about your god (Allah), about the miracles (including resurrection and afterlife) and prophecies, about the text (Qur'an), and even about your prophet, are not really knowledge, because you have no way to "verify" they are all real or true.

What you really have, are again based on "belief" and "faith".

For instance, you believe - as all other Muslims do - that Muhammad met the archangel Gabriel, in 610 CE, which Muhammad claimed that angel came on behalf of Allah, and taught him the Qur'an.

But how do you or any Muslim know that Muhammad was speaking the truth?

The question is begged.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The universe is not a complete manifestation of GOd but can display some things

the angels saif 'hoy hoy hoy is the Lord almighty. Heaven and Earth are FILLED with His glory'
THe angels can't look on His holiness but the universe even a sin broken world beeding redemption can showcase some of His glory'

The universe shows some aspects of his infinity... his creativity...

The tiune nature of the universe with space time and matter... each a trinity in itself time: past present future ... space : length breadth height... matter: energy, momentum and state
gives a glimple of aspects of God but just a glipse and incomplete

Jesus is more the manifestation of who God is an what he's like

What and where is the physical manifestation of God beyond the manifested physical universe?

 

[loverofhumanity]

To me 'the Bible is a sacred writing' and it does Not state life on other planets.
If there was faithful intelligent life elsewhere then that means a faithful Adam and Eve, so there would be No need to settle the sin issue here on Earth because it would have already been settled elsewhere.

Who knows, but after Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth if fulfilled, then we could see intelligent life elsewhere, but until Universal Sovereignty is setted here on Earth there will be No intelligent physical life elsewhere.

You may be right. First we need very much to fix things up here. Excellent insight. Thanks for reminding me.

What do you understand by Jesus 1,000 year sovereignty as we Baha'is have a view of world unity. Maybe we can share and exchange views.

 

[gnostic]

The very distinction suggests that you cannot tell another what they don't know.

The very fact that they cannot possibly verify the existence of a deity, spirit, or whatever you want to call it, is a matter based solely on faith and belief, not on evidence and fact.

Believing in gods, angels, demons and jinns, is no different from believing in fairies or ghouls and goblins, all of which is based on fear and ignorance. Another name for fear (eg fear of the unknown, or fear of angry god) and ignorance is "superstition".

Prehistoric, ancient and medieval people used to believe that when they suffered from ill-fortune (eg famine, drought, pestilence, thunderstorms, earthquakes, etc), that some gods or demons were responsible for their current predicaments. They associate the events, good or bad, on some unseeable forces, eg God, is a superstition.

The Book of Job (chapters 38 to 41) demonstrated the belief in superstitions, that a God is responsible for all the natural wonders and natural disasters.

Can you seriously tell me that believing King Solomon can communicate with ants (Qur'an 27) is not based on blind faith?

There are distinctions between knowing and believing.

The question is begged.

Sorry, don't see it that way.

I see loverofhumanity confusing "knowing" with "believing". I've tried to explain the differences, even go so far to provide an example what faith and belief are like.

Right after my post, loverofhumanity is telling valjean how, since joining Bahai Faith, how can see the "truth", but others who follow his or her religion, are too blind to see the truth:

Yes I now have inner vision to see the truth and I see it abundantly clearly even as the sun. The fact others are deprived of this is very, very unfortunate.

Just as loverofhumanity used the word "know" so loosely, loverofhumanity now used "truth" loosely.

Whose truth, is loverofhumanity talking about?

With so many different religions, different sects and different believers claimed to have the "truth", that truth have become the new cheapen capitalism, becoming associated with personal opinions, very subjective, very selective.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The very fact that they cannot possibly verify the existence of a deity, spirit, or whatever you want to call it, is a matter based solely on faith and belief, not on evidence and fact.

Believing in gods, angels, demons and jinns, is no different from believing in fairies or ghouls and goblins, all of which is based on fear and ignorance. Another name for fear (eg fear of the unknown, or fear of angry god) and ignorance is "superstition".

Prehistoric, ancient and medieval people used to believe that when they suffered from ill-fortune (eg famine, drought, pestilence, thunderstorms, earthquakes, etc), that some gods or demons were responsible for their current predicaments. They associate the events, good or bad, on some unseeable forces, eg God, is a superstition.

The Book of Job (chapters 38 to 41) demonstrated the belief in superstitions, that a God is responsible for all the natural wonders and natural disasters.

Can you seriously tell me that believing King Solomon can communicate with ants (Qur'an 27) is not based on blind faith?

There are distinctions between knowing and believing.


Sorry, don't see it that way.

I see loverofhumanity confusing "knowing" with "believing". I've tried to explain the differences, even go so far to provide an example what faith and belief are like.

Right after my post, loverofhumanity is telling valjean how, since joining Bahai Faith, how can see the "truth", but others who follow his or her religion, are too blind to see the truth:


Just as loverofhumanity used the word "know" so loosely, loverofhumanity now used "truth" loosely.

Whose truth, is loverofhumanity talking about?

With so many different religions, different sects and different believers claimed to have the "truth", that truth have become the new cheapen capitalism, becoming associated with personal opinions, very subjective, very selective.

Gnostic. Hi!

I know there is a God like I know joy or feel pain. I'm sorry you haven't yet developed inner ears and inner eyes to see God but I see Him and you too possess that ability.

Imagine how, just the thin eyelid can prevent us from seeing the sun so imagine how just a slight taint of bias or closed mindedness can likewise close our inner vision from beholding the signs of God!!

“Even as the sun, bright hath He shined,
But alas, He hath come to the town of the blind!”

Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh. “The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys

The influence of the Prophets of God is clearly established throughout human history. They were alone, lowly and poor and persecuted by the most powerful and wealthy kings and rulers of their time yet they triumphed over all opposition.

Jesus was nailed to a cross. Look now at His greatness, the lowly Son of a carpenter.

Muhammad was illiterate and yet no one has been able to produce a Book in such perfect Arabic as the Quran.

This statement says it all and the faithful should refer to it and others take note of just how awesome is the power of God.

"Heed not your weaknesses and frailty; fix your gaze upon the invincible power of the Lord, your God, the Almighty. Has He not, in past days caused Abraham, in spite of His seeming helplessness, to triumph over the forces of Nimrod? Has He not enabled Moses, whose staff was His only companion, to vanquish Pharaoh and his hosts? Has He not established the ascendancy of Jesus, poor and lowly as He was in the eyes of men, over the combined forces of the Jewish people? Has He not subjected the barbarous and militant tribes of Arabia to the holy and transforming discipline of Muammad, His Prophet? Arise in His name, put your trust wholly in Him, and be assured of ultimate victory." - (The Bab)

 

[Ben Dhyan]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If God sends forth his spirit and then withdraws it....that is coming and going for God is the Spirit.. And presumably the Spirit goes forth into the space of this universe..yes?

God sends forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30, so that does seem to indicate go forth into the space of our universe.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You may be right. First we need very much to fix things up here. Excellent insight. Thanks for reminding me.
What do you understand by Jesus 1,000 year sovereignty as we Baha'is have a view of world unity. Maybe we can share and exchange views.

Thank you for your reply, but is it 'we' who can really do the fixing ?
How can we get everyone to cultivate the qualities of Galatians 5:22-23 ?
In Scripture, Jesus gave a spiritual commission to do at Matthew 24:14 to tell others that God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is what will fix things here.
In other words, God gave the heavenly resurrected Jesus the monumental job to fix things.
To me, we need to teach by telling others ' repent ' or will ' perish ' (be destroyed) - 2 Peter 3:9
The coming executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked forever - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16; Psalms 92:7
Jesus' 1,000 year sovereignty begins when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.
Those goodwill people are spoken of figuratively as humble ' sheep ' at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37. So, in Scripture, starting with those ' sheep ' on Earth they are going to be the foundation for world unity.

 

[gnostic]

Jesus' 1,000 year sovereignty begins when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.

Which has not happened.

If anything, he started a religion, that became increasingly more corrupted and caused a lot of divisions, tensions and violence in his name.

According to messianic prophecies in the Old Testament, the sovereignty and peace should have started the 1st time around, not with the Second Coming. The OT make no mention of any Second Coming. The prophecy is not about "If you don't succeed the first time, try...try...try again."

This only demonstrate that Jesus wasn't the messiah Jews were waiting for, because he fulfilled none of the prophecies while he was alive.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Which has not happened.
If anything, he started a religion, that became increasingly more corrupted and caused a lot of divisions, tensions and violence in his name.
According to messianic prophecies in the Old Testament, the sovereignty and peace should have started the 1st time around, not with the Second Coming. The OT make no mention of any Second Coming. The prophecy is not about "If you don't succeed the first time, try...try...try again."
This only demonstrate that Jesus wasn't the messiah Jews were waiting for, because he fulfilled none of the prophecies while he was alive.

Right, we can agree the thousand-year reign of Christ has Not (yet) happened.
Right, a corrupted religion as foretold at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30; Matthew 7:21-23
Not corrupted for those who follow Jesus' NEW commandment of John 13:34-35 to have self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus did.

Didn't Jesus make it a plain illustration that he would first go away to a far country (heaven) before he would return - Luke 19:11-15
Jesus has to wait - Psalms 110 - before the glory time comes of Matthew 25:31-33.
Jesus told us that the good news of God's kingdom government would be proclaimed earth wide before we would see the end of all badness on Earth - Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8
Never before in history has that good news message been proclaimed on an international scale as it is being done today - Daniel 2:44
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so that people everywhere can have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages. So, we are at that ' final phase ', so to speak, of Matthew 24:14, and are nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' ( powers that be ) are saying, " Peace and Security " as the precursor of the coming great tribulation - Revelation 7:14 - before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.- Revelation 22:2

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you for your reply, but is it 'we' who can really do the fixing ?
How can we get everyone to cultivate the qualities of Galatians 5:22-23 ?
In Scripture, Jesus gave a spiritual commission to do at Matthew 24:14 to tell others that God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is what will fix things here.
In other words, God gave the heavenly resurrected Jesus the monumental job to fix things.
To me, we need to teach by telling others ' repent ' or will ' perish ' (be destroyed) - 2 Peter 3:9
The coming executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked forever - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16; Psalms 92:7
Jesus' 1,000 year sovereignty begins when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.
Those goodwill people are spoken of figuratively as humble ' sheep ' at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37. So, in Scripture, starting with those ' sheep ' on Earth they are going to be the foundation for world unity.

We also believe that world peace will become a reality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

God sends forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30, so that does seem to indicate go forth into the space of our universe.

And if God were to withdraw His Spirit.....then the universal creation would be dissolved....yes?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And if God were to withdraw His Spirit.....then the universal creation would be dissolved....yes?

Withdraw His spirit completely would seem to indicate: dissolved - Job 34:13-14

According to Scripture, before the material/physical realm came into existence there was first only the spirit realm - Job 38:4-6
The angels ' clapped their hands ', so to speak, at the creation of the visible realm - Job 38:7; Job 33:4

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Withdraw His spirit completely would seem to indicate: dissolved - Job 34:13-14

According to Scripture, before the material/physical realm came into existence there was first only the spirit realm - Job 38:4-6
The angels ' clapped their hands ', so to speak, at the creation of the visible realm - Job 38:7; Job 33:4

Ok...so that fits with the teaching of the one infinite eternal God whose manifested creations come and go eternally.The transcendent God is unborn and is without end....all the manifested creations of God have beginnings and endings. Now I know the bible naturally only talks of the present manifested creation cycle, for that is what of interest and relevance to earth's mankind ....but according to my understanding....there was never a first creation....God is eternal and the cycles of creation and dissolution have been going on eternally...not just this manifestation that supposedly began 13.7 billions years ago...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok...so that fits with the teaching of the one infinite eternal God whose manifested creations come and go eternally.The transcendent God is unborn and is without end....all the manifested creations of God have beginnings and endings. Now I know the bible naturally only talks of the present manifested creation cycle, for that is what of interest and relevance to earth's mankind ....but according to my understanding....there was never a first creation....God is eternal and the cycles of creation and dissolution have been going on eternally...not just this manifestation that supposedly began 13.7 billions years ago...

To me, if it were Not for God gifting Earth to us - Psalms 115:16 - then everything would be perishable.
Earth is resilient and springs back. God offers us humans the prospect of future ' everlasting life ' on Earth (live forever on Earth)

Doesn't Revelation 3:14 B talk of a first or beginning ' heavenly ' creation?________ - (Revelation 1:5)

 

[Ben Dhyan]

To me, if it were Not for God gifting Earth to us - Psalms 115:16 - then everything would be perishable.
Earth is resilient and springs back. God offers us humans the prospect of future ' everlasting life ' on Earth (live forever on Earth)

Doesn't Revelation 3:14 B talk of a first or beginning ' heavenly ' creation?________ - (Revelation 1:5)

I've already addressed the question of the 'beginning'...it refers to the present cycle... not previous or other cycles...and in this context the use of beginning is relevant and appropriate. But in the matter of salvation, what one believes is not so important as the actual spiritual goal of realizing transcendence.. So while I do not believe there will be everlasting physical life on Earth, I have no doubt that those that do believe it or do not believe it, may, if their heart and mind and soul are sufficiently devoted to God and are purified, realize spiritual transcendence......salvation!

 

[Willamena]

The very fact that they cannot possibly verify the existence of a deity, spirit, or whatever you want to call it, is a matter based solely on faith and belief, not on evidence and fact.

Yet truth exists.

The Book of Job (chapters 38 to 41) demonstrated the belief in superstitions, that a God is responsible for all the natural wonders and natural disasters.

Job assumes God. The topic of the story is something else.

Can you seriously tell me that believing King Solomon can communicate with ants (Qur'an 27) is not based on blind faith?

It's certainly no example of blind faith.

There are distinctions between knowing and believing.

Truth is the distinction.

Sorry, don't see it that way.

I see loverofhumanity confusing "knowing" with "believing". I've tried to explain the differences, even go so far to provide an example what faith and belief are like.

Right after my post, loverofhumanity is telling valjean how, since joining Bahai Faith, how can see the "truth", but others who follow his or her religion, are too blind to see the truth:


Just as loverofhumanity used the word "know" so loosely, loverofhumanity now used "truth" loosely.

Whose truth, is loverofhumanity talking about?

There is only one significant truth, that is the one that we each see. The other generalized one is extrapolation (and realism fallacy).

With so many different religions, different sects and different believers claimed to have the "truth", that truth have become the new cheapen capitalism, becoming associated with personal opinions, very subjective, very selective.

If it really was an analogy with capitalism (the rich get richer and the poor get poorer) we would see the truth becoming less associated with the person, rather than more.

 

[Thief]

...I am trying to understand where or how you think God/Spirit exists in relation to the manifested universe? For example is God/Spirit omnipresent?

the relationship is creation and Creator

location of Spirit was the reason for the creation of Man

when you can only speak to your own Echo......

 

[whirlingmerc]

The universe from nothing is only the tip of the iceberg....
God makes light even in the darkest lives, showing mercy remaking broken lives back into His image. God makes ways when it looks like there is no way.

Genesis 1 said God made man in His image 3 times
Now he remakes those in a fallen tarnishished image to reflect His glory better and better