A Universe from Nothing?

[Ben Dhyan]

You were making your usual distinction between conceptual representation and "reality", ( post #1327 for example ), I was challenging your simplistic assumptions about perception.

Hmmm.....so is your thought of an apple actually one and the same as a physical apple that can be eaten?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

And why does it even occur to you that reality can be accessed, whatever that means, if one stopped conceptualizing perceptions, whatever that entails?

I was arguing against that idea, if you read what I actually wrote.

Well, it must easy enough of a concept for you to talk about it. So, what is it you're talking about when using the word?

Like I said, "reality" is an abstraction, a can of worms. It is not a word I find useful.

It would be helpful if you could respond to what I actually said.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Hmmm.....so is your thought of an apple actually one and the same as a physical apple that can be eaten?

Obviously not, but you seem to assume that by ceasing to conceptualise about "apple" you can experience the apple's "reality". That is the assumption I am challenging. We might be able to change the way we perceive stuff, but we are still perceiving. "Reality" remains forever an abstraction.

 

[Ana.J]

I'm not sure if I can post a poll on here but who here believes that the universe originated from nothing? As some of the major scientific theories from the 20th century claimed or was there an originator of some sort? Doesn't have to be God necessarily in your opinion. Who believes the universe has no beginning? I'm just curious as to what you guys believe with regard to this topic and what the basis of your belief would be?

It sounds a bit controversial, don't you think? Something from nothing? I believe in the conservation of energy and it seems that there was something or someone who created the universe and it had a beginning in time.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Obviously not, but you seem to assume that by ceasing to conceptualise about "apple" you can experience the apple's "reality". That is the assumption I am challenging. We might be able to change the way we perceive stuff, but we are still perceiving. "Reality" remains forever an abstraction.

I have a problem understanding where your ideas are coming from....please quote my exact words whereby I am assuming when I cease thinking of an apple, I can feel the apple's "reality"?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I have a problem understanding where your ideas are coming from....please quote my exact words whereby I am assuming when I cease thinking of an apple, I can feel the apple's "reality"?

I am saying that "reality" is forever an abstraction. I am saying that while we might alter perception, there is always still perception.

Is that something you agree with, and if not, why not?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It sounds a bit controversial, don't you think? Something from nothing? I believe in the conservation of energy and it seems that there was something or someone who created the universe and it had a beginning in time.

I think conservation of energy is a property of space-time, so it is difficult to apply this concept "prior" to the big bang.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think conservation of energy is a property of space-time, so it is difficult to apply this concept "prior" to the big bang.

Yes .. it is a property of space-time. Part of our 'reality'

So are you saying that absolute reality doesn't exist?
[I guess you must be .. you imply that nothing exists before the big-bang]

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am saying that "reality" is forever an abstraction. I am saying that while we might alter perception, there is always still perception.

Is that something you agree with, and if not, why not?

How is that edible fruit for which we give the name 'apple' an abstraction?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

How is that edible fruit for which we give the name 'apple' an abstraction?

"Apple" is a label for something we perceive.

I am saying that "reality" is forever an abstraction. I am saying that while we might alter perception, there is always still perception.

Is that something you agree with, and if not, why not?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes .. it is a property of space-time. Part of our 'reality'
So are you saying that absolute reality doesn't exist?
[I guess you must be .. you imply that nothing exists before the big-bang]

I am saying that "reality" is an abstraction. "Absolute reality" is even more of an abstraction, to the point of being meaningless, same with "ultimate reality", and similar terms.

I have no idea about "before" the big bang, and I don't think anybody else does either. I can't see the point of filling in this great unknown with crude and unprovable assertions like "God did it".

 

[Ana.J]

I am saying that "reality" is an abstraction. "Absolute reality" is even more of an abstraction, to the point of being meaningless, same with "ultimate reality", and similar terms.

I have no idea about "before" the big bang, and I don't think anybody else does either. I can't see the point of filling in this great unknown with crude and unprovable assertions like "God did it".

Then who triggered the Bang if no God?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Then who triggered the Bang if no God?

I have no idea, and I don't think anyone else does either. We don't even know if "triggered" is applicable. "Before" the big bang is currently a great unknown, some people try to fill it with religious beliefs but to me that looks like a rather needy and pointless clutching at metaphysical straws.

 

[Father Heathen]

Then who triggered the Bang if no God?

Who triggered God if no Bang?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"Apple" is a label for something we perceive.

I am saying that "reality" is forever an abstraction. I am saying that while we might alter perception, there is always still perception.

Is that something you agree with, and if not, why not?

You did not answer my question, how do you see an apple as an abstraction...I am curious?
And I would like you to clarify as to what meaning you give to the concept 'abstraction' when you say.....'reality' is forever an abstraction?

 

[`mud]

Ahhh...the perception of the perception of the reality of an abstraction of perception !
And He had a trigger in that singularity, and nothingness all around !
Oh....now I get it !
~
'mud

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Ahhh...the perception of the perception of the reality of an abstraction of perception !
And He had a trigger in that singularity, and nothingness all around !
Oh....now I get it !
'mud

Just perception really.

The rest is metaphysical speculation and abstraction.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You did not answer my question, how do you see an apple as an abstraction...I am curious?
And I would like you to clarify as to what meaning you give to the concept 'abstraction' when you say.....'reality' is forever an abstraction?

I said "reality" was an abstraction. An abstract concept.

"Apple" is a label for a perception, or more accurately a set of perceptions. What we actually experience are an apples' qualities, eg roundness, redness, hardness. We experience phenomena, and assume noumena.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I have no idea, and I don't think anyone else does either..

Well, that's not quite true, is it?
You simply aren't concerned about it..

"Before" the big bang is currently a great unknown, some people try to fill it with religious beliefs but to me that looks like a rather needy and pointless clutching at metaphysical straws.

As I say, you simply aren't interested .. you are satisfied with things the way they are .. you have "no need" of spiritual guidance..

 

[YmirGF]

Well, that's not quite true, is it?
You simply aren't concerned about it..

No one with an iota of intellectual honesty will make claims about what preceded the Big Bang without qualifying that their claims contain assumptions. When human animals pretend to know about the "before" period or what caused it they have abandoned critical thinking and are out on a limb when the qualifiers are left out.

As I say, you simply aren't interested .. you are satisfied with things the way they are .. you have "no need" of spiritual guidance..

That is, of course, assuming that such so-called "spiritual guidance" is an existential reality. We have no way to verify if that assumption is correct especially when reflecting on the state of those who think they are somehow "guided".