A Universe from Nothing?

[Rick O'Shez]

Ok....so we all find it hard to admit it when we are wrong....it was obvious to all from the get go that your position was weird, but I won't rub it in by repeating my questions and pointing out the obvious...but I do expect I have the right to the last word... this..

Eh? It seems you have real difficulty thinking outside your narrow box. Or perhaps you just don't like it when you are not dictating the terms of the debate.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Eh? It seems you have real difficulty thinking outside your narrow box. Or perhaps you just don't like it when you are not dictating the terms of the debate.

Apparently what is logic to some is a narrow box to you.... It is not possible to have a reasoned debate when you says things as though it were sensible...but isn't, and then refuse to address the questions asked to try and make sense of them...

 

[ArtieE]

I tend to agree, but I was challenging the notion of "real" as things which exist independent of the mind of humans. All experience takes place in our minds, and that experience is subjective.

The brains of humans are also real and exist. But if a brain gets confused and starts seeing dancing pink elephants we can determine if these elephants are real or just imaginary by independent observation etc. What we experience doesn't determine what's real.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The brains of humans are also real and exist. But if a brain gets confused and starts seeing dancing pink elephants we can determine if these elephants are real or just imaginary by independent observation etc. What we experience doesn't determine what's real.

I agree. There is a sort of objectivity in consensus, but the way we perceive things is inherently subjective because it is shaped and limited by our physiology and psychology. I find the word "reality" very problematic in these discussions, it is a philosophical can of worms and and an ill-defined abstraction. And expressions like "ultimate reality" are pretentious nonsense in my view.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

.... It is not possible to have a reasoned debate when you says things as though it were sensible...but isn't, and then refuse to address the questions asked to try and make sense of them...

Pot calling the kettle black.

I think you are projecting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

 

[ArtieE]

I agree. There is a sort of objectivity in consensus, but the way we perceive things is inherently subjective because it is shaped and limited by our physiology and psychology.

But how we perceive things has no bearing on whether something is actually real or not.

I find the word "reality" very problematic in these discussions, it is a philosophical can of worms and and an ill-defined abstraction.

"Reality" is what actually exists regardless of subjective perceptions.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Pot calling the kettle black.

I think you are projecting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

You can think anything you want...but seriously, you are not making sense. And since you refused my offer to end the farce by letting the relevant comment pass, I must honorably return to the question you have refused to answer...."what meaning do you give to the concept "abstraction" (the concept "abstraction" can have a number of meanings depending on context) when you say ""reality" is an abstraction"?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

"Reality" is what actually exists regardless of subjective perceptions.

But ALL perception is subjective, and therefore "reality" is an abstraction, something we can only speculate about. A space alien with different sense organs and different perceptual processes would speculate about "reality" in a quite different way from us.

What we actually experience are phenomena, and those are within a fairly limited range.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

... ""reality" is an abstraction"?

"Reality" is not something we actually experience, it is something we can only speculate about, therefore it is an ill-defined abstraction. It is also a philosophical cans of worms.

What we actually experience are phenomena, and our experience is inherently subjective.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"Reality" is not something we actually experience, it is something we can only speculate about, therefore it is an ill-defined abstraction. It is also a philosophical cans of worms.

What we actually experience are phenomena, and our experience is inherently subjective.

Oh yeah...so if reality is it is not something that humans experience....what do they experience? You say humans experience only phenomena....so that means phenomena are not real by your own logic...

So around and round it goes...you have been out of your depth from the get go....i have been trying to put you out of your misery by ending the farce, but you insist on digging your hole deeper...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Oh yeah...so if reality is it is not something that humans experience....what do they experience? You say humans experience only phenomena....so that means phenomena are not real by your own logic...

Yes, I am saying that we experience phenomena, and you could say that is the first stage of the perception process. And I have clearly explained why I don't like the word "real" in discussions like this.
You seem to be throwing a hissy fit, but I am still not clear what you are actually objecting to. Is it that your assumptions are being challenged, and you don't like it?

around and round it goes...you have been out of your depth from the get go....i have been trying to put you out of your misery by ending the farce, but you insist on digging your hole deeper...

Again, cut the patronising nonsense. It is completely inappropriate and makes you look foolish.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes, I am saying that we experience phenomena, and you could say that is the first stage of the perception process. And I have clearly explained why I don't like the word "real" in discussions like this.
You seem to be throwing a hissy fit, but I am still not clear what you are actually objecting to. Is it that your assumptions are being challenged, and you don't like it?



Again, cut the patronising nonsense. It is completely inappropriate and makes you look foolish.

You said..."Reality" is not something we actually experience"....then you said...."What we actually experience are phenomena"

Logically it follows according to reason...that if the real is not experienced.....and only the phenomena is experienced... that the phenomena are not real....

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You said..."Reality" is not something we actually experience"....then you said...."What we actually experience are phenomena"
Logically it follows according to your understanding...that if the real is not experienced.....only the phenomena is experienced... that the phenomena are not real....

The phenomena exist, otherwise we would not experience them.

But what exactly do you mean by "reality"? What do you think it is like?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The phenomena exist, otherwise we would not experience them.

But what do you actually mean by "real"?

First things first....you said the that reality is not something we experience....but then you say we experience phenomena... Answer this....are experienced phenomena real or not?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

First things first....you said the that reality is not something we experience....but then you say we experience phenomena... Answer this....are experienced phenomena real or not?

I have said that they exist.

You tell me exactly what you think "real" means, and I will give you a response on that.

You also need to explain exactly what you think "reality" is.

 

[ArtieE]

But ALL perception is subjective, and therefore "reality" is an abstraction, something we can only speculate about. A space alien with different sense organs and different perceptual processes would speculate about "reality" in a quite different way from us.

So? Whatever exists and is real exists and is real regardless of how we or space aliens perceive it. It would exist and be real even if we or the space aliens didn't exist.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have said that they exist.

You tell me exactly what you think "real" means, and I will give you a response on that.

You also need to explain what you think "reality" is.

Haha....you used the term...:"Reality" is not something we actually experience.".....so you tell us?..

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Haha....you used the term...:"Reality" is not something we actually experience.".....so you tell us?..

I have clearly explained why I don't like the word "reality" in these discussions, it is you who is attached to it. So tell me what you think it means.

 

[ArtieE]

You tell me exactly what you think "real" means, and I will give you a response on that.

Real means existing as opposed to not existing.

You also need to explain exactly what you think "reality" is.

Reality is what exists as opposed to what doesn't exist.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So? Whatever exists and is real exists and is real regardless of how we or space aliens perceive it. It would exist and be real even if we or the space aliens didn't exist.

The problem with this argument is that what we actually experience is a limited set of phenomena. A space alien with different biology could come across the the same "thing", but experience a quite different set of phenomena to us. Maybe they would see in the infra-red part of the spectrum instead of visible light for example.