A Universe from Nothing?

[Rick O'Shez]

Real means existing as opposed to not existing.Reality is what exists as opposed to what doesn't exist.

OK. So reality includes everything that exists, including all the stuff which we cannot sense?

 

[`mud]

'Reality' exists only in the 'now' of existence,
not after or before, it's always passing.
All 'realties' are already gone.
But there's already another spoonful,
of this Cosmic soup.
~
'mud

 

[ArtieE]

The problem with this argument is that what we actually experience is a limited set of phenomena. A space alien could experience the same "thing", but experience a quite different set of phenomena to us.

The thing exists and is real. We might experience different aspects of it if we and the aliens have different sensory organs but the thing that exists and is real doesn't change. The thing is not a set of "phenomena" it's a real existing thing.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

'Reality' exists only in the 'now' of existence,
not after or before, it's always passing.
All 'realties' are already gone.
But there's already another spoonful,
of this Cosmic soup.
~mud

If you mean our personal "reality" ( experience ) then yes, it is ever-changing. Some say that the past is permanently "preserved", which means you could travel back to it with a time-machine, or by going really fast in the Starship Enterprise and bringing back some whales.

 

[ArtieE]

A space alien with different biology could come across the the same "thing", but experience a quite different set of phenomena to us. Maybe they would see in the infra-red part of the spectrum instead of visible light for example.

So? It would still be the same thing we would just see it differently.

 

[`mud]

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The thing exists and is real. We might experience different aspects of it if we and the aliens have different sensory organs but the thing that exists and is real doesn't change. The thing is not a set of "phenomena" it's a real existing thing.

I agree there are things "out there", my point is that they are never fully knowable because we only experience a limited range of phenomena. The space alien would experience a different thing, because he/she/it would experience a different set of phenomena. So for example if they saw in the infra-red, they wouldn't know what it was like to experience colour.

 

[ArtieE]

OK. So reality includes everything that exists, including all the stuff which we cannot sense?

Sure. Just ask a blind person if what he doesn't see doesn't exist...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So? It would still be the same thing we would just see it differently.

But we define things in terms of what we see, in terms of the phenomena we actually experience. A thing would look completely different in the infra-red spectrum for example.

Some animals sense their world in a very different way to us, some can detect electric currents, others use "radar", and so on. Imagine how different their "reality" would be, based on a different set of phenomena to ours.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Sure. Just ask a blind person if what he doesn't see doesn't exist...

A blind persons "reality" would be very different to a sighted persons "reality". That is the point. They would experience a more limited set of phenomena.

 

[ArtieE]

But we define things in terms of what we see, in terms of the phenomena we actually experience. A thing would look completely different in the infra-red spectrum for example.

What does it matter what something looks like in different spectrums it doesn't change what it is... a human being looked at through a thermal vision camera is still a human being...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What does it matter what something looks like in different spectrums it doesn't change what it is... a human being looked at through a thermal vision camera is still a human being...

But imagine if you could ONLY see in the infra-red spectrum, that is another thing entirely.

 

[ArtieE]

A blind persons "reality" would be very different to a sighted persons "reality". That is the point. They would experience a more limited set of phenomena.

Reality doesn't change if you go blind. You would be walking the same existing real streets as before.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Reality doesn't change if you go blind. You would be walking the same existing real streets as before.

But your EXPERIENCE of this "reality" would be very different, particularly if you had been blind from birth and never had the experience of seeing.

Imagine how different our "reality" would be if we could sense dark matter or dark energy.

 

[ArtieE]

But imagine if you could ONLY see in the infra-red spectrum, that is another thing entirely.

It doesn't change the real existing thing I'm looking at...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It doesn't change the real existing thing I'm looking at...

But you would experience the thing in a very different way, and make quite different assumptions about what the thing was like.

I am not saying that things don't exist, I am saying we can never fully know them. All we can know is a limited set of phenomena related to that thing.

 

[ArtieE]

But your EXPERIENCE of this "reality" would be very different, particularly if you had been blind from birth and never had the experience of seeing.

Imagine how different our "reality" would be if we could sense dark matter or dark energy.

"Our reality" wouldn't be different at all we would just see different aspects of reality or more of it but reality wouldn't change. There's no such thing as "our reality" only "reality" and different ways of perceiving aspects of it.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

"Our reality" wouldn't be different at all we would just see different aspects of reality or more of it but reality wouldn't change. There's no such thing as "our reality" only "reality" and different ways of perceiving aspects of it.

I disagree. We can only know our own "reality", based on the experience of a limited set of phenomena. We can never know the "reality" of animals which sense things in different ways, we can never know the "reality" of space aliens, and so on.

You talk about "reality" but you have no idea what it really is, because you can only experience a small part of it, and indirectly at that due to the perception process. We don't experience dark matter or dark energy for example, and yet they are said to comprise a large part of the cosmos.

If we define "reality" as everything that exists, then much of reality is unknown and unknowable.

 

[ArtieE]

But you would experience the thing in a very different way, and make quite different assumptions about what the thing was like.

I am not saying that things don't exist, I am saying we can never fully know them. All we can know is a limited set of phenomena related to that thing.

Correct. That's the point of science. To come up with ways of getting to fully know reality.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Correct. That's the point of science. To come up with ways of getting to fully know reality.

That will never happen.