A Universe from Nothing?

[muhammad_isa]

...
When human animals pretend to know about the "before" period or what caused it they have abandoned critical thinking and are out on a limb when the qualifiers are left out.

Really? Shall I give you a day-to day account of life before the big bang?

That is, of course, assuming that such so-called "spiritual guidance" is an existential reality. We have no way to verify if that assumption is correct

Oh, I think we do .. most of us have some kind of intelligence .. but our intentions are the most important thing.

..especially when reflecting on the state of those who think they are somehow "guided".

Well, if you judge religions by world politics, you won't have a clue!

 

[YmirGF]

Really? Shall I give you a day-to day account of life before the big bang?

Would you expect me to take your assumptions seriously?

Oh, I think we do .. most of us have some kind of intelligence .. but our intentions are the most important thing.

You can pretend that is correct, but "spiritually guided" individuals have no widely recognized history of being better than "unguided".

Well, if you judge religions by world politics, you won't have a clue!

Hehe. I hadn't even thought of politics here, LOL. The righteous are no better than sinners, though their hat sizes are often bigger.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I said "reality" was an abstraction. An abstract concept.

"Apple" is a label for a perception, or more accurately a set of perceptions. What we actually experience are an apples' qualities, eg roundness, redness, hardness. We experience phenomena, and assume noumena.

You do not answer my questions.....what meaning do you give to the concept "abstraction" (the concept "abstraction" can have a number of meanings depending on context) when you say ""reality" is an abstraction"?

So again you seem to be implying that the reality to which we give the name 'apples' only exist because we perceive it. So let me ask you directly....do you think apples exist independent of human perception?

 

[james bond]

I am using the concept 'real' as that which actually exists on the other side of the concept. Iow, concepts are mental constructs....that is the reality...they are not that which they are meant to represent.....we merely use them as a proxy to represent what we mean. Do not conflate the concept of the real with the real....else you will be caught in maya.

I am using real as in that which exists whether it is natural or supernatural and that which can exist in the mind. So the latter is not real according to you. Thoughts are not real to you. Imagination is not real. Would emotions be real either? What about aliens -- are they real or not real? There are suppose to be material since they're suppose to exist in the physical world because the universe is so vast, but there is no concrete evidence that is real. Unless you believe the area 51 stuff or flying saucers. There isn't logic that would lead to something existing because the universe is so vast either, but atheist scientist Carl Sagan believed it.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So again you seem to be implying that the reality to which we give the name 'apples' only exist because we perceive it. So let me ask you directly....do you think apples exist independent of human perception?

Yes, I think there is something "out there", but we only experience a limited perception of it. We experience phenomena, like shape and colour, and those are shaped by our physiology and psychology. Conceptualising is only the last stage of the process.

I don't find the word "reality" useful in these discussions, it is an ill-defined abstraction and a philosophical can of worms.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

As I say, you simply aren't interested .. you are satisfied with things the way they are .. you have "no need" of spiritual guidance..

I didn't say I wasn't interested, it is more that I am not satisfied with beliefs like "God", which look more to do with finding comfort than finding truth.

I don't know what you mean by "spiritual guidance", could you explain it?

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
I don't know what you mean by "spiritual guidance", could you explain it?

"spiritual guidance" as in enlightenment for mankind on how to organise themselves .. hence civilisation.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am using real as in that which exists whether it is natural or supernatural and that which can exist in the mind. .

Whereas I am using 'real' as that which exists independent of the mind of mortals....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes, I think there is something "out there", but we only experience a limited perception of it. We experience phenomena, like shape and colour, and those are shaped by our physiology and psychology. Conceptualising is only the last stage of the process.

I don't find the word "reality" useful in these discussions, it is an ill-defined abstraction and a philosophical can of worms.

All blather.....you are ignoring my questions because you are out of your depth.. Now if you are really a serious student, go back and respond to my post with some sincerity so that some learning can take place. I am patient until forever...

 

[McBell]

I am using real as in that which exists whether it is natural or supernatural and that which can exist in the mind.

So everything is real and there is nothing that is not real?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

All blather.....you are ignoring my questions because you are out of your depth.. Now if you are really a serious student, go back and respond to my post with some sincerity so that some learning can take place. I am patient until forever...

Cut the patronising nonsense. You are not a teacher, and we are not your students. And you don't get to dictate the terms of the debate.

I have answered your "questions" and made clear statements about how I see things. I have asked you to say whether you agree or disagree with what I have said. I am still waiting for a coherent response.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Whereas I am using 'real' as that which exists independent of the mind of mortals....

"Real" is an speculative abstraction in the sense that you are using it here.

We simply don't know what exists independent of human minds....by definition.

 

[ArtieE]

"Real" is an speculative abstraction in the sense that you are using it here.

We simply don't know what exists independent of human minds....by definition.

I'm pretty sure my house and car and everything else would still be here if all human minds disappeared tomorrow.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Cut the patronising nonsense. You are not a teacher, and we are not your students. And you don't get to dictate the terms of the debate.

I have answered your "questions" and made clear statements about how I see things. I have asked you to say whether you agree or disagree with what I have said. I am still waiting for a coherent response.

You have definitely not answered this one.....so here it is again......if you do not answer, I will keep on repeating it until you do.. ..

What meaning do you give to the concept "abstraction" (the concept "abstraction" can have a number of meanings depending on context) when you say ""reality" is an abstraction"?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"Real" is an speculative abstraction in the sense that you are using it here.

We simply don't know what exists independent of human minds....by definition.

I repeat the question....what meaning do you give to the concept "abstraction" (the concept "abstraction" can have a number of meanings depending on context) when you say ""Real" is an speculative abstraction in the sense that you are using it here"?

Everyone it seems except you knows that an apple exists independent of their perception.....there is no definition involved to the contrary...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I repeat the question....what meaning do you give to the concept "abstraction" (the concept "abstraction" can have a number of meanings depending on context) when you say ""Real" is an speculative abstraction in the sense that you are using it here"?
Everyone it seems except you knows that an apple exists independent of their perception.....there is no definition involved to the contrary...

We simply don't know what exists independent of human minds. We rely on perception, and the final stages of perception take place in our mind. If we don't have a perception of something in our mind, then for us it effectively doesn't exist.

In post #1327 you said "I am using 'real' as that which exists independent of the mind of mortals...."
to which I responded:
""Real" is an speculative abstraction in the sense that you are using it here."

Because, as I have just explained, we don't know what exists independent of human minds.

As usual, you are making unsubstantiated claims, and I am challenging them.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

We simply don't know what exists independent of human minds.

In post #1327 you aid "I am using 'real' as that which exists independent of the mind of mortals...." to which I responded:
""Real" is an speculative abstraction in the sense that you are using it here."

I can't be any clearer. Perhaps it's your problem, an inability to think outside your narrow box.

You are being obtuse again...the reality represented by the concept of Sun exists independent of human perception....it is not rocket science.

In the same way, the reality represented by the concept of universal reality exists independently of human perception...

And now to the question you keep sidestepping.... .what meaning do you give to the concept "abstraction" (the concept "abstraction" can have a number of meanings depending on context) when you say ""Real" is an speculative abstraction in the sense that you are using it here"?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You are being obtuse again...the reality represented by the concept of Sun exists independent of human perception....it is not rocket science.

I am not being obtuse, just challenging your claims. Go away and think about it.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I'm pretty sure my house and car and everything else would still be here if all human minds disappeared tomorrow.

I tend to agree, but I was challenging the notion of "real" as things which exist independent of the mind of humans. All experience takes place in our minds, and that experience is subjective.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am not being obtuse, just challenging your claims. Go away and think about it.

Ok....so we all find it hard to admit it when we are wrong....it was obvious to all from the get go that your position was weird, but I won't rub it in by repeating my questions and pointing out the obvious...but I do expect I have the right to the last word... this..