A Universe from Nothing?

[ArtieE]

Non-human creatures have brains. Do they have a sense of self and can say 'I am'?

That of course depends on how and how much their different brains evolved.

You are still making a quantum leap from material unconscious atoms and molecules to the non-material conscious 'I'. How does that happen?

https://www.wired.com/2013/11/christof-koch-panpsychism-consciousness/

 

[ArtieE]

'I' is only present when there is thought. When no thought is present, however, consciousness is still there. IOW, 'I' is about thinking; consciousness is about seeing, without thought, and therefore, without any such 'I'. 'I' is an illusion of the mind.

You might as well say that "I" is an illusion caused by the interactions of atoms and molecules and the electrochemical processes in the brain and when those processes stop the illusory "I" disappears.

 

[gnostic]

Haha....religious meditation is not about holding your breath.....shows you know as much about meditation as you know about religion and metaphysics......

It is true that main goal to meditation is not breathing, but it is method of achieving that meditative state, especially in Buddhism.

Breathing exercises are one of the means to reach a relax state - in body and mind.

Have you ever heard of "breathing meditation", Ben?

I am sure that there is name for this form of meditation, but it has been long ago, that I no longer remember it. If you are a Buddhist, Ben, then you should know this.

Damn it, it is bugging me that I can't remember the name used for this type of meditation.

How about you godnotgod? You seem to be familiar with Zen. Do you know what I am talking about? Am I wrong that Zen Buddhism or other forms of Buddhism do use breathing meditation?

And though I know very little of Hinduism, I am certain their yoga, actually use postures and breathing exercises.

 

[godnotgod]

You might as well say that "I" is an illusion caused by the interactions of atoms and molecules and the electrochemical processes in the brain and when those processes stop the illusory "I" disappears.

Except that you don't know that 'I' is the product of such chemical reactions in the brain. It is only a hypothesis called 'Emergent Theory', not even a bona fide scientific theory, as such.

But we still have the problem, even if those chemical reactions are the cause of 'I', as to exactly HOW they create 'I' in the first place; how material unconscious atoms/molecules create the conscious non-material 'I'. This is called Upward Causation, and there is no real argument for it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

They don't seem to grasp that theological creation also makes no sense. The entire area doesn't make sense.

That there is intelligence behind the integrated complexity of organisms and the cycles & forces supporting their life, "makes no sense"?

Wow! Isaac Newton and Antony Flew thought otherwise.....that it was the only sense.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Woah!
Issac Newton?!?!?
He was a smart guy. He must be right.

Except for the alchemy part. Lol!

 

[godnotgod]

It is true that main goal to meditation is not breathing, but it is method of achieving that meditative state, especially in Buddhism.

Breathing exercises are one of the means to reach a relax state - in body and mind.

Have you ever heard of "breathing meditation", Ben?

I am sure that there is name for this form of meditation, but it has been long ago, that I no longer remember it. If you are a Buddhist, Ben, then you should know this.

Damn it, it is bugging me that I can't remember the name used for this type of meditation.

How about you godnotgod? You seem to be familiar with Zen. Do you know what I am talking about? Am I wrong that Zen Buddhism or other forms of Buddhism do use breathing meditation?

And though I know very little of Hinduism, I am certain their yoga, actually use postures and breathing exercises.

As far as I know, all of the Eastern traditions employ breath as the life-force in their practices.

In yoga, it is called pranayama.

Zen has a special kind of walking meditation and breath control called kinhin.

In Buddhism, it is Ānāpānasati and Samatha.

In ancient Greece, the word pneuma meant spirit, or breath. IOW, breath was spirit, or consciousness. But pneuma has been eviscerated of its original meaning by science, to just refer to air, as in pneumonia, or pneumatic.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It is true that main goal to meditation is not breathing, but it is method of achieving that meditative state, especially in Buddhism.

Breathing exercises are one of the means to reach a relax state - in body and mind.

Have you ever heard of "breathing meditation", Ben?

I am sure that there is name for this form of meditation, but it has been long ago, that I no longer remember it. If you are a Buddhist, Ben, then you should know this.

Damn it, it is bugging me that I can't remember the name used for this type of meditation.

How about you godnotgod? You seem to be familiar with Zen. Do you know what I am talking about? Am I wrong that Zen Buddhism or other forms of Buddhism do use breathing meditation?

And though I know very little of Hinduism, I am certain their yoga, actually use postures and breathing exercises.

As godnotgod said..the name you are most probably trying to remember is 'pranayama'...generally paired with 'yoga'....prana means life energy or force...yoga means union... The main purpose of concentration on the breath is to keep the mind focused in order that it does not chatter... Thus this practice is conducive to stilling the mind...which is the penultimate goal...union itself being the ultimate..

Beginners generally are inclined to employ the asanas...body position, posture, etc...but it is not essential.. Probably in this day and age....mindfulness practice, both periods of sitting, and during the day as one goes about life, is an effective way to begin... Later...after years probably... during the period of comfortable sitting meditation, the mind will go quiet without the need for concentration on breath, and then the 'aum' most probably will be heard with the inner hearing... One can then concentrate on that as a way to stay in the silence.. until the merging process hits critical mass and the mind will not easily be able to think.....whereas at the beginning, the mind was not easily able to not think..

 

[gnostic]

As far as I know, all of the Eastern traditions employ breath as the life-force in their practices.

In yoga, it is called pranayama.

Zen has a special kind of walking meditation and breath control called kinhin.

In Buddhism, it is Ānāpānasati and Samatha.

In ancient Greece, the word pneuma meant spirit, or breath. IOW, breath was spirit, or consciousness. But pneuma has been eviscerated of its original meaning by science, to just refer to air, as in pneumonia, or pneumatic.

As godnotgod said..the name you are most probably trying to remember is 'pranayama'...generally paired with 'yoga'....prana means life energy or force...yoga means union... The main purpose of concentration on the breath is to keep the mind focused in order that it does not chatter... Thus this practice is conducive to stilling the mind...which is the penultimate goal...union itself being the ultimate..

Beginners generally are inclined to employ the asanas...body position, posture, etc...but it is not essential.. Probably in this day and age....mindfulness practice, both periods of sitting, and during the day as one goes about life, is an effective way to begin... Later...after years probably... during the period of comfortable sitting meditation, the mind will go quiet without the need for concentration on breath, and then the 'aum' most probably will be heard with the inner hearing... One can then concentrate on that as a way to stay in the silence.. until the merging process hits critical mass and the mind will not easily be able to think.....whereas at the beginning, the mind was not easily able to not think..

Thank you, ben_q and godnotgod.

I can see the benefits of meditation...from the more practical POV...like to rest the body and mind, to clear one's head, to help with focus and concentration.

What I don't see are the evidences for the whole mystical shebang that have been associated with meditation, like the pure or transcendent consciousness, the mystic energy, the ultimate reality.

Take for instance, the breath. Sure, I'd agree that without the breath, there's no life. Hence, I don't mind people calling breath as "life-force". For me, I know of life-force or energy as "hei"; that's Cantonese for the more better-known Mandarin transliteration - "qì" or "ch'i".

However, I don't see why we must associate breath or life force with the "spirit"...unless the spirit is merely a metaphor.

Can you understand ben_q and godnotgod my skepticism whenever spirit or the consciousness with the capital "C" are brought into the conversation? Can you understand my irritability whenever the subject of "ultimate reality" comes up?

I simply don't see any more evidence of what you've claimed anymore than the claims made by the Abrahamic faith.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Thank you, ben_q and godnotgod.

I can see the benefits of meditation...from the more practical POV...like to rest the body and mind, to clear one's head, to help with focus and concentration.

What I don't see are the evidences for the whole mystical shebang that have been associated with meditation, like the pure or transcendent consciousness, the mystic energy, the ultimate reality.

Take for instance, the breath. Sure, I'd agree that without the breath, there's no life. Hence, I don't mind people calling breath as "life-force". For me, I know of life-force or energy as "hei"; that's Cantonese for the more better-known Mandarin transliteration - "qì" or "ch'i".

However, I don't see why we must associate breath or life force with the "spirit"...unless the spirit is merely a metaphor.

Can you understand ben_q and godnotgod my skepticism whenever spirit or the consciousness with the capital "C" are brought into the conversation? Can you understand my irritability whenever the subject of "ultimate reality" comes up?

I simply don't see any more evidence of what you've claimed anymore than the claims made by the Abrahamic faith.

Yes....do not be put off by the labels.....Chi....Prana....Pneuma.....Ruach....Ka...Spirit...etc...are all just transliterations of the names that originated in different cultures to represent universal life energy... The metaphysical understanding is that, if one becomes a life energy master, they will have a spiritual self awareness beyond physical life existence. Religious practice is meant to realize this state while in the body and thus become an immortal....a spiritual energy based entity.

The means to an end is not different from the end...regardless of the goal. Hence all great achievers of goals in this world....billionaires, sporting giants, oscar winning actors, mafia godfathers, etc...realized their goal through having an extreme passion for it... And the same is true for spiritual transcendence....the luke warmers will never realize transcendence, only those who are prepared to transfer their self identity from the flesh to the life force/spirit, at the expense of all worldly goals, will realize it..

So far as being skeptical....not a problem...there are plenty of challenging goals in this world...but for those that are prepared...suck it and see...not intellectually...not conceptually...but in actuality...it is more real than mental interpretation....dogma...belief....disbelief..etc..

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What I don't see are the evidences for the whole mystical shebang that have been associated with meditation, like the pure or transcendent consciousness, the mystic energy, the ultimate reality.
Can you understand ben_q and godnotgod my skepticism whenever spirit or the consciousness with the capital "C" are brought into the conversation? Can you understand my irritability whenever the subject of "ultimate reality" comes up?
I simply don't see any more evidence of what you've claimed anymore than the claims made by the Abrahamic faith.

I am an experienced meditator, and I share your skepticism about some of the claims that are made. Meditative experiences are inherently subjective and open to interpretation, you can read all sorts of things into them. I think it is rather arrogant to project out such experiences and claim that they define the cosmos in some way. References to "Cosmic Consciousness" and "Ultimate Reality" are pretentious nonsense in my view, they are really new-age God substitutes.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I am sure that there is name for this form of meditation, but it has been long ago, that I no longer remember it. If you are a Buddhist, Ben, then you should know this.
Damn it, it is bugging me that I can't remember the name used for this type of meditation.

In Buddhism it is anapanasati, which translates as "breath mindfulness". Traditionally in Buddhism there are 40 possible objects of meditation, the breath is the most popular object because it is ever-present and easily accessible.
In Buddhist practice breathing meditation is commonly used to develop samatha ( tranquillity ) and vipassana ( insight ).

 

[gnostic]

In Buddhism, it is Ānāpānasati and Samatha.

In Buddhism it is anapanasati, which translates as "breath mindfulness". Traditionally in Buddhism there are 40 possible objects of meditation, the breath is the most popular object because it is ever-present and easily accessible.
In Buddhist practice breathing meditation is commonly used to develop samatha ( tranquillity ) and vipassana ( insight ).

Ānāpānasati was the most likely name for what the two guys were teaching me, but I don't know if that the word they had used, because I still can't remember, like it was 32 years ago. They spoke Cantonese like my parents did, so they might have used Cantonese name for Ānāpānasati.

 

[`mud]

hey Ben,
I couldn't have said it better,
could I ?
~
'mud

 

[james bond]

In Buddhism it is anapanasati, which translates as "breath mindfulness". Traditionally in Buddhism there are 40 possible objects of meditation, the breath is the most popular object because it is ever-present and easily accessible.
In Buddhist practice breathing meditation is commonly used to develop samatha ( tranquillity ) and vipassana ( insight ).

I've gone to Buddhist services because my gf is Buddhist. I like the smell of incense and the huge bell being rung before the start of service. We chant and it has its meditative effects. I haven't taken it beyond this, but do believe the mind can overcome a great deal through meditation. Even the sermons has the effect of being in tune with God afterward. This would be hard for a Buddhist to understand since there is no word for faith in Buddhism.

 

[james bond]

Yes....do not be put off by the labels.....Chi....Prana....Pneuma.....Ruach....Ka...Spirit...etc...are all just transliterations of the names that originated in different cultures to represent universal life energy... The metaphysical understanding is that, if one becomes a life energy master, they will have a spiritual self awareness beyond physical life existence. Religious practice is meant to realize this state while in the body and thus become an immortal....a spiritual energy based entity.

The means to an end is not different from the end...regardless of the goal. Hence all great achievers of goals in this world....billionaires, sporting giants, oscar winning actors, mafia godfathers, etc...realized their goal through having an extreme passion for it... And the same is true for spiritual transcendence....the luke warmers will never realize transcendence, only those who are prepared to transfer their self identity from the flesh to the life force/spirit, at the expense of all worldly goals, will realize it..

So far as being skeptical....not a problem...there are plenty of challenging goals in this world...but for those that are prepared...suck it and see...not intellectually...not conceptually...but in actuality...it is more real than mental interpretation....dogma...belief....disbelief..etc..

>>The means to an end is not different from the end...regardless of the goal. Hence all great achievers of goals in this world....billionaires, sporting giants, oscar winning actors, mafia godfathers, etc...realized their goal through having an extreme passion for it... And the same is true for spiritual transcendence....the luke warmers will never realize transcendence, only those who are prepared to transfer their self identity from the flesh to the life force/spirit, at the expense of all worldly goals, will realize it..<<

Thanks for this. I'm about to undertake a life change and maybe a career change to which I'll have to focus a lot of my money and energy on. I'm not sure how I'll accomplish it, but hope to formulate something.

 

[godnotgod]

Meditative experiences are inherently subjective and open to interpretation, you can read all sorts of things into them. I think it is rather arrogant to project out such experiences and claim that they define the cosmos in some way.

That is only the case as long as there is a 'self' called 'I' involved. Once self is transcended, the view becomes transformed into Universal View. It cannot be any other way. It is one or the other. Apparently, in spite of your 30 years of meditative experience, you still have not overcome the illusory self, which your own Heart Sutra tells us is empty of inherent self-nature. This is why I keep asking: who, or what is it that is seeking? Cheri Huber, Zennist, answers:

'That which you are seeking is causing you to seek'

 

[godnotgod]

Can you understand my irritability whenever the subject of "ultimate reality" comes up?

You are now immersed in perceptual reality. Ultimate Reality is what lies beyond the five senses, which, at some point, are limited and/or faulty in ascertaining the nature of Reality. Perhaps you have to stay inside of perception until you realize this, which will then prompt you to seek beyond perception. Until then, what the rational mind provides via perception is comfortable, and the mystery that lies outside is too uncomfortable for you right now.

I simply don't see any more evidence of what you've claimed anymore than the claims made by the Abrahamic faith.

baby fish: 'momma, what is the sea? all my friends at school keep talking about the sea'?

momma fish: 'well, baby, the sea is all around you and inside of you. you were born into it, and will die in it.'

baby fish: (frantically looking all around) 'i don't see any sea! it just doesn't exist!' *sigh*

momma fish: *sigh*

 

[godnotgod]

....the luke warmers will never realize transcendence, only those who are prepared to transfer their self identity from the flesh to the life force/spirit, at the expense of all worldly goals, will realize it..

.

Careful with this. It does not mean to suddenly become dirt poor and take a vow of poverty, although some do. It only means to exchange one's focus from worldly things to those of the spirit as a priimary goal. It means to not be attached to worldly goals. But this new goal demands you play it with everything you have, all your energies in focus, one reason Zen cultivates what is called 'one-pointedness of mind'. You cannot play this new game half-heartedly, as ben d states. This is called The Master Game. It's goal is Awakening, as compared to The Religion Game, whose goal is Salvation.

 

[ArtieE]

baby fish: 'momma, what is the sea? all my friends at school keep talking about the sea'?

momma fish: 'well, baby, the sea is all around you and inside of you. you were born into it, and will die in it.'

baby fish: (frantically looking all around) 'i don't see any sea! it just doesn't exist!' *sigh*

momma fish: *sigh*

The human equivalent would be air. We can't see it but we have instruments that can tell us which gases it consists of and in which quantities. I suppose you can do that by simply closing your eyes and thinking about nothing? I personally prefer the useful approach.