A Universe from Nothing?

[Shad]

That there is intelligence behind the integrated complexity of organisms and the cycles & forces supporting their life, "makes no sense"?

Wow! Isaac Newton and Antony Flew thought otherwise.....that it was the only sense.

Newton thought the divine pushed the planets around as he couldn't figure out how planets moved... Flew accepted arguments he not only rejected but refuted in work earlier in his life. This is evident when you see how much he contradicted himself after his statements about ID. Also his "work" published later in life regarding evolution shows regression of his knowledge and writing compared to his earlier work. He seem to be obvious to his own past work and knowledge

Name dropping is useless when people actually know about the people you name drop then you do. It is also useless as there are no argument provided, just statements.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now they have found bacteria deep inside the mines and sy that they get their energy from cosmic rays.

 

[gnostic]

You are now immersed in perceptual reality. Ultimate Reality is what lies beyond the five senses, which, at some point, are limited and/or faulty in ascertaining the nature of Reality. Perhaps you have to stay inside of perception until you realize this, which will then prompt you to seek beyond perception. Until then, what the rational mind provides via perception is comfortable, and the mystery that lies outside is too uncomfortable for you right now.

It is not so much I am stuck in perceptual reality, that you cannot provide a single shred of evidence for the existence of this "ultimate reality" or for "cosmic consciousness".

If you say that the reality that I can perceive with any one or combination of my 5 senses to be illusion or not real, then what evidences do you have the "ultimate reality" isn't an illusion?

We can confirm and verify what we see or hear with instruments or equipment that's can measure them.

We also have instruments that measure what we cannot see or hear, like multimeter that can measure electric currents or voltages, or device that can measure sound waves that are beyond the frequencies that we can hear.

If that's the case, then how can any Buddhist or anyone else who believe in ultimate reality say that these things that we perceive are illusions?

I think it is the other way around. What you call "ultimate reality" is the illusion or mirage.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Careful with this. It does not mean to suddenly become dirt poor and take a vow of poverty, although some do. It only means to exchange one's focus from worldly things to those of the spirit as a priimary goal. It means to not be attached to worldly goals. But this new goal demands you play it with everything you have, all your energies in focus, one reason Zen cultivates what is called 'one-pointedness of mind'. You cannot play this new game half-heartedly, as ben d states. This is called The Master Game. It's goal is Awakening, as compared to The Religion Game, whose goal is Salvation.

I agree....what I meant by "at the expense of worldly goals" was the passion to become a billionaire, a world class sporting figure, an oscar winning actor, a mafia godfather, etc.. As Jesus put it ..."you can not serve two masters without serving one second best".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hey 'mud...it's always nice when I 'see' your verbal images....

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Newton thought the divine pushed the planets around as he couldn't figure out how planets moved... Flew accepted arguments he not only rejected but refuted in work earlier in his life. This is evident when you see how much he contradicted himself after his statements about ID. Also his "work" published later in life regarding evolution shows regression of his knowledge and writing compared to his earlier work. He seem to be obvious to his own past work and knowledge

Name dropping is useless when people actually know about the people you name drop then you do. It is also useless as there are no argument provided, just statements.

Everything written and said are statements, false and true. Arguments are just statements, too. I noticed my question wasn't answered, either.

 

[james bond]

That is only the case as long as there is a 'self' called 'I' involved. Once self is transcended, the view becomes transformed into Universal View. It cannot be any other way. It is one or the other. Apparently, in spite of your 30 years of meditative experience, you still have not overcome the illusory self, which your own Heart Sutra tells us is empty of inherent self-nature. This is why I keep asking: who, or what is it that is seeking? Cheri Huber, Zennist, answers:

'That which you are seeking is causing you to seek'

I have a question about Zennists. Aren't they hardcore, i.e. adamant in their belief, that there is no supernatural? What if seeking the supernatural God?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have a question about Zennists. Aren't they hardcore, i.e. adamant in their belief, that there is no supernatural? What if seeking the supernatural God?

Belief is not the way of zen....zen is about the realization of non-duality... where there is belief, there is a believer....when there is realization of the unity of existence....duality is absent.. What this oneness is called is not important....being one with it is.....

 

[godnotgod]

The human equivalent would be air. We can't see it but we have instruments that can tell us which gases it consists of and in which quantities. I suppose you can do that by simply closing your eyes and thinking about nothing? I personally prefer the useful approach.

You see, the sea is a metaphor for Universal Consciousness. Like the fish born into the sea, who does not know he is in the sea, man, too, is born into UC, or Tao, but does not remember it. Like the fish whose attention is almost immediately captured by the foreground of his environment, namely food and predators, we are also captivated by the noise and glitter of the foreground of life, not realizing the existence of the quiet background. It is the noise and glitter of the foreground which conditions our mind to see things a particular way, and not the way things actually are. Science, Religion, Politics, etc, are major contributors to this life-long conditioning process. Only by turning off the noise machine in our heads do we have an opportunity to listen to the Silent World of the background. Zen people call this background 'Big Mind', and the conditioned, or discursive mind 'monkey mind', not because it lacks intelligence, but because it jumps around like a monkey, first latching onto this idea, then that. And so, by tuning into the background, we 'return' to the Source from which we first emerged into the foreground we call 'life'. Because we have lost touch with the background, we don't know where we came from, what we're doing here, nor where we're headed after death. This creates Metaphhysical Anxiety, and many create a God or gods to relieve them from such anxiety.

 

[godnotgod]

I have a question about Zennists. Aren't they hardcore, i.e. adamant in their belief, that there is no supernatural? What if seeking the supernatural God?

A 'proper' Zen answer might be:

"I neither believe; nor not-believe"

which stays true to a non-dual view. Why is this important? Because by leaning neither to the right or to the left, one is not compelled to take up a position of contention. Any position of contention eventually involves defense, and then defense leads to offense as the point of contention must now be defended. This, of course, leads to aggression and friction, taking one further and further away from Reality. But by not-contending and non-attachment, one now finds oneself free to see the true nature of both sides, and to see the whole as well. IOW, one's mind is now free.

 

[godnotgod]

I agree....what I meant by "at the expense of worldly goals" was the passion to become a billionaire, a world class sporting figure, an oscar winning actor, a mafia godfather, etc.. As Jesus put it ..."you can not serve two masters without serving one second best".

I did realize that. The post was primarily for others to take note of. Thanks.

edit: In the 'Handbook to Higher Consciousness*', Ken Keyes talks about the 3 lower centers of consciousness as the 3 addictions, namely, Power, Security, and Sensation, to which most of the people of the world are in pursuit of, in various combinations. Only when man enters into the 4th center, that of Love, are the 3 centers transformed from Addictions into Preferences.

*You can download a PDF version of the entire book for free, here:

http://worldprayerfoundation.com/resources/Ken Keyes-Handbook to Higher Consciousness.pdf

 

[Shad]

Everything written and said are statements, false and true. Arguments are just statements, too. I noticed my question wasn't answered, either.

An argument is a set of statements to support a conclusion. You have stated only a conclusion; X people believe in something thus it "makes sense". This is a horrible argument as sense does not mean rational, correct nor do the opinions of people regardless of who they are. Sense is also influenced by what people believe at the time. For a racist the belief in their race's superiority over others makes sense from their point of view. However this view is irrational once you dig deeper to the support for such a view.

Your question was to a specific person that isn't me so I didn't bother answering. I do not care what makes sense to anyone that does not bother to support such a view. Anyone can make all the empty statements they want. This does not make it true nor rational.

 

[godnotgod]

If you say that the reality that I can perceive with any one or combination of my 5 senses to be illusion or not real, then what evidences do you have the "ultimate reality" isn't an illusion?

We cannot ultimately trust the senses as it is the senses themselves which are fooled by illusion. They only serve us to a limited degree within our physical environment. But the illusion goes deeper than that, as Quantum Physics has now revealed to us. But even Quantum Physics still cannot reveal to us the true nature of Reality. We must go beyond perception, beyond the phenomenal world to get to the source behind the world. Having said that, the paradox is that this ordinary, everyday world is none other than the world of the miraculous itself. IOW, Ulimate Reality is not 'out there' in some weird time and place, but right under our very noses. The problem is the conditioned mind and how we see the world. The point of higher consciousness is to see past the conditioned mind with an unconditioned mind. That allows us to see things as they are, because now the mind is freed of its (illusory) shackles of conditioning. Religion and even Science are forms of conditioning the mind to see things in a highly controlled and restricted way.

If that's the case, then how can any Buddhist or anyone else who believe in ultimate reality say that these things that we perceive are illusions?

You don't need a Buddhist to tell you that. Quantum Physics is now telling us two very important things about the phenomenal world: that this 'material' world is now seen as 'possibility'; and that all of the mass of the atom is now understood to be virtual mass, meaning that all material reality is virtual in nature.

Of course, Hindus have been telling us that the 'material' world is maya for over 4000 years, and Buddhists tell us that:

"form is emptiness;
emptiness is form"

 

[Hockeycowboy]

An argument is a set of statements to support a conclusion. You have stated only a conclusion; X people believe in something thus it "makes sense". This is a horrible argument as sense does not mean rational, correct nor do the opinions of people regardless of who they are. Sense is also influenced by what people believe at the time. For a racist the belief in their race's superiority over others makes sense from their point of view. However this view is irrational once you dig deeper to the support for such a view.

Your question was to a specific person that isn't me so I didn't bother answering. I do not care what makes sense to anyone that does not bother to support such a view. Anyone can make all the empty statements they want. This does not make it true nor rational.

No, I did not draw any conclusion, nor did I state one; I simply asked a question and mentioned an observation.

And an idea that "makes sense," may not always be correct, but it is rational.

Bigotry doesn't make sense....that was a bad example.

Peace.

 

[ArtieE]

Only by turning off the noise machine in our heads do we have an opportunity to listen to the Silent World of the background.

If the world in the background is silent there's nothing to listen to in the first place...

 

[godnotgod]

If the world in the background is silent there's nothing to listen to in the first place...

Then you're not really listening.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

This would be hard for a Buddhist to understand since there is no word for faith in Buddhism.

In Buddhism it is saddhā / śraddhā).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Buddhism

 

[ArtieE]

We cannot ultimately trust the senses as it is the senses themselves which are fooled by illusion.

There is no "we" we are only illusions and "our senses" are just illusions being fooled by other illusions right?

 

[ArtieE]

Then you're not really listening.

No seriously if the world in the background is silent there's nothing to listen to... but what do I know I'm just an illusion addressing another illusion...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I have a question about Zennists. Aren't they hardcore, i.e. adamant in their belief, that there is no supernatural? What if seeking the supernatural God?

Zen is really a mixture of Buddhism and Taoism.