A Universe from Nothing?

[Ben Dhyan]

You lack of imagination is truly stunning. So much for your intuitive grasp of - anything...

You, a self professed atheist going around telling everyone they have had a genuine encounter with a deity.......cut and dried....what imagination is required for what?

Fwiw, your experience is also not unusual...when a devotee of any religion practice reaches an elevated state of spiritual awareness, there will be a merging of soul with a higher cosmic plane....and all their mind's faculties are heightened...the inner visual faculty will manifest an appropriate image of the relevant faith. For you, an iskcon devotee at the time, it was Vishnu, for a Christian devotee who has reached the point of worthiness, it will be Jesus, an apostle, or an angel, etc., and so on for all religions.. As I have said before on this thread, a means to an end is not different from the end...

 

[Thief]

The Persona and the Shadow are illusory concoctions of the Ego. What is real about the Persona?

so...you do possess an ...ego?

 

[james bond]

You see, the action taken is 'refuge'. If that is the case, my friend, there is a problem.

Who is it that takes refuge?

In the end, the seeker is extinguished in Nirvana.

My sentence seems clear to me and 99.9999% of the posters here. Again, there is no problem and the action taken is my action and not yours.

It sounds like you've overthunk this and more to the point of ad nauseum.

 

[james bond]

You, a self professed atheist going around telling everyone they have had a genuine encounter with a deity.......cut and dried....what imagination is required for what?

Fwiw, your experience is also not unusual...when a devotee of any religion practice reaches an elevated state of spiritual awareness, there will be a merging of soul with a higher cosmic plane....and all their mind's faculties are heightened...the inner visual faculty will manifest an appropriate image of the relevant faith. For you, an iskcon devotee at the time, it was Vishnu, for a Christian devotee who has reached the point of worthiness, it will be Jesus, an apostle, or an angel, etc., and so on for all religions.. As I have said before on this thread, a means to an end is not different from the end...

Have to admit an atheist with intuition is odd in an a priori vs a posteriori sense.

However, one intelligent atheist on Quora said, "Intuition is not ESP. It is the result of non-conscious thought processes. A brain filters far more information than your conscious mind perceives. Intuition is normal and useful, but also fallible.

There's nothing supernatural about it in any way, it's just a part if how human brains work, so there's no reason for atheist to not believe in it.

I doubt many atheists believe that intuition is some paranormal power."

In Christianity, we think of it as the Holy Spirit and to listen to it and act upon our first intuition. That said, the part I agree with the intelligent atheist is that intuition is also fallible. If that happens, then we should check why it failed. I've never had to do it when an intuition had to do with me. For example, I am sleepy behind the wheel of a car and my intuition tells me to pull over and rest. Where I had to check is when I play fantasy baseball daily fantasy sports (DFS) and the pitcher or hitter that I thought for sure was going to score points for me failed to do it. Then one wants to watch the replay or the entire game, if possible, to see where their intuition failed and learn from it.

 

[james bond]

Just for fun, take an intuition test to see how intuitive you are? The price is right. It's free.

I scored 160 and already knew it.

http://intuitiontest.com/

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Have to admit an atheist with intuition is odd in an a priori vs a posteriori sense.

However, one intelligent atheist on Quora said, "Intuition is not ESP. It is the result of non-conscious thought processes. A brain filters far more information than your conscious mind perceives. Intuition is normal and useful, but also fallible.

There's nothing supernatural about it in any way, it's just a part if how human brains work, so there's no reason for atheist to not believe in it.

I doubt many atheists believe that intuition is some paranormal power."

In Christianity, we think of it as the Holy Spirit and to listen to it and act upon our first intuition. That said, the part I agree with the intelligent atheist is that intuition is also fallible. If that happens, then we should check why it failed. I've never had to do it when an intuition had to do with me. For example, I am sleepy behind the wheel of a car and my intuition tells me to pull over and rest. Where I had to check is when I play fantasy baseball daily fantasy sports (DFS) and the pitcher or hitter that I thought for sure was going to score points for me failed to do it. Then one wants to watch the replay or the entire game, if possible, to see where their intuition failed and learn from it.

I agree with most of your observation.....the thing about the intuitive faculty is that it works behind the scenes, it can't be made to do the ego mind's bidding. That is why such religious practices as quiet prayer, contemplation, meditation, etc, are fine ways to develop the intuitive faculty.....humility becomes essential as one learns that our ego mind can make a wonderful servant, but a bad master...

 

[james bond]

I agree with most of your observation.....the thing about the intuitive faculty is that it works behind the scenes, it can't be made to do the ego mind's bidding. That is why such religious practices as quiet prayer, contemplation, meditation, etc, are fine ways to develop the intuitive faculty.....humility becomes essential as one learns that our ego mind can make a wonderful servant, but a bad master...

Thanks. I do not begrudge anybody who uses their intuition and it keeps them safe, helps them make a breakthrough, helps make a decision, prevents negative consequences or helps in achieving a positive result. However they believe it happens is fine. That said, I wonder about the atheists who do not understand it or do not have faith in it.

https://www.quora.com/Do-atheists-believe-in-intuition

 

[godnotgod]

so...you do possess an ...ego?

It's not MY ego...it's just an ego, but is recognized for what it is: an illusion.

 

[godnotgod]

My sentence seems clear to me and 99.9999% of the posters here. Again, there is no problem and the action taken is my action and not yours.

It sounds like you've overthunk this and more to the point of ad nauseum.

All I'm saying is that to take refuge is to leave something that was a problem, that's all. Otherwise, you are not taking refuge from anything. You're there for some other reason, like smelling the incense to give you a pleasant feeling. But that's not Buddhism, OK?

My question may seem to have an obvious answer, so in that sense may seem moot. But this is probably one of the most important questions one can ask when on the spiritual path. So you may surmise that I am not referring to the 'I' that seeks refuge. It's just a simple question, and I am not trying to be coy or deceptive in any way:

You said you seek refuge in the Buddha, etc. All I am asking is:

"Who is it that seeks refuge?"
(Actually, this kind of question is very Zen)

'overthunk'?, LOL. Is that even a word?

 

[godnotgod]

You, a self professed atheist going around telling everyone they have had a genuine encounter with a deity.......

Sometimes we fail to realize just how large a mouse ego can be.

 

[YmirGF]

You, a self professed atheist going around telling everyone they have had a genuine encounter with a deity.......cut and dried....what imagination is required for what?

I was not an atheist at the time. Go figure. Likewise, it took several years to drill down through this multi-layered, multidimensional experience. No doubt I will discover much more over the next several years.

Fwiw, your experience is also not unusual...when a devotee of any religion practice reaches an elevated state of spiritual awareness, there will be a merging of soul with a higher cosmic plane....and all their mind's faculties are heightened...the inner visual faculty will manifest an appropriate image of the relevant faith. For you, an iskcon devotee at the time, it was Vishnu, for a Christian devotee who has reached the point of worthiness, it will be Jesus, an apostle, or an angel, etc., and so on for all religions.. As I have said before on this thread, a means to an end is not different from the end...

Again, for the dim or slow, understanding is an evolutionary process. The huge mistake is to take such a vision at face value, pun intended. If you ever have to good fortune to have such an encounter you will understand some of what I am trying to convey. The problem is that the image is so dazzling that it is very easy to get sucked into it and miss what is going on behind the scenes. You say this is not unusual. It is the very definition of an unusual experience and is hardly a commonplace occurrence. I'm not suggesting I'm the only one to have been treated to this level of intrigue, but I clearly recognize that is very much out of the ordinary realm of endeavors.

Again, it was this experience that has helped to form the basis or foundation of a definition of personality that is well beyond what we are used to hearing. The idea is that at the core of the individual is the larger identity of the source self. You could also describe this as the entity which is an individualized aspect of consciousness that is by nature, multidimensional, in that it exists in innumerable different realities simultaneously and is aware of itself in each of those realities. In larger terms, the source self, the larger identity is what gave rise to our notions of god. God is the externalized version of our latent and highly distorted ideas or perception of the larger identity. Last, but not least, all aspects of the source self as one with the source self though inherent awareness of this internal feature is rarely conscious to the aspect self. Finally, your larger identity is not my larger identity. The much vaunted Oneness we hear about so often is a ruse and a distortion of the above.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I was not an atheist at the time. Go figure. Likewise, it took several years to drill down through this multi-layered, multidimensional experience. No doubt I will discover much more over the next several years.

Again, for the dim or slow, understanding is an evolutionary process. The huge mistake is to take such a vision at face value, pun intended. If you ever have to good fortune to have such an encounter you will understand some of what I am trying to convey. The problem is that the image is so dazzling that it is very easy to get sucked into it and miss what is going on behind the scenes. You say this is not unusual. It is the very definition of an unusual experience and is hardly a commonplace occurrence. I'm not suggesting I'm the only one to have been treated to this level of intrigue, but I clearly recognize that is very much out of the ordinary realm of endeavors.

Again, it was this experience that has helped to form the basis or foundation of a definition of personality that is well beyond what we are used to hearing. The idea is that at the core of the individual is the larger identity of the source self. You could also describe this as the entity which is an individualized aspect of consciousness that is by nature, multidimensional, in that it exists in innumerable different realities simultaneously and is aware of itself in each of those realities. In larger terms, the source self, the larger identity is what gave rise to our notions of god. God is the externalized version of our latent and highly distorted ideas or perception of the larger identity. Last, but not least, all aspects of the source self as one with the source self though inherent awareness of this internal feature is rarely conscious to the aspect self. Finally, your larger identity is not my larger identity. The much vaunted Oneness we hear about so often is a ruse and a distortion of the above.

I know you were not an atheist at the time....you were an iskcon devotee...I said so! I know the manifested vision is not that which manifested the vision, but there is an aspect of cosmic awareness at play as the cause...and I know that it caused much that followed in your life...particularly concerning your mind.

You should have noted the context of my calling it not unusual, it was with respect to serious religious students...devotees.
You apparently have lived a fairly sheltered life since you had the experience, there are literally millions of such experiences...do a google for Mary apparitions....not that all apparitions are equal, it depends on the unfoldment stage of the soul.. Be aware, in many cases such an experience can cause delusions in that the ego imagines it was the center that was worthy of the experience...and .instead of humility before the awesome glory of higher awareness, the ego center arrogantly imagines it earned the breakthrough.....whereas it is was the soul. This happens when the soul manages to discipline the ego during the devotee stage earning the breakthrough to a higher state, but unfortunately at that point, the ego may become too enamored with own sense of worthiness that it becomes undisciplined and disobedient, thus breaking free from the straight path to join the wide and slower path..

There is only one Oneness of the Cosmos...and comparison of it as mine and yours is vanity...we all live, move, and have our being in the Oneness....whatever the name given to IT by the various religions...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Again, it was this experience that has helped to form the basis or foundation of a definition of personality that is well beyond what we are used to hearing. The idea is that at the core of the individual is the larger identity of the source self. You could also describe this as the entity which is an individualized aspect of consciousness that is by nature, multidimensional, in that it exists in innumerable different realities simultaneously and is aware of itself in each of those realities. In larger terms, the source self, the larger identity is what gave rise to our notions of god. God is the externalized version of our latent and highly distorted ideas or perception of the larger identity. Last, but not least, all aspects of the source self as one with the source self though inherent awareness of this internal feature is rarely conscious to the aspect self. Finally, your larger identity is not my larger identity. The much vaunted Oneness we hear about so often is a ruse and a distortion of the above.

An interesting description. I can relate it to a sense of spaciousness, the mind being more expansive, thoughts and feelings seen in a clearer perspective because they arise in a much bigger space. I do agree that externalising and projecting such experiences is entirely missing the point. Could you say what you mean by "Oneness"?

 

[Thief]

It's not MY ego...it's just an ego, but is recognized for what it is: an illusion.

and 'you' know the difference.....

 

[YmirGF]

An interesting description. I can relate it to a sense of spaciousness, the mind being more expansive, thoughts and feelings seen in a clearer perspective because they arise in a much bigger space. I do agree that externalizing and projecting such experiences is entirely missing the point. Could you say what you mean by "Oneness"?

Hi Rick, 'twas a small typo in the original, the corrected version is the following.

Last, but not least, all aspects of the source self ARE ONE with their source self though inherent awareness of this internal feature is rarely conscious to the aspect self. Finally, your larger identity is not my larger identity. The much vaunted Oneness we hear about so often is a ruse and a distortion of the above.

It is due to the extent of the individual source self, that literally straddles worlds, we immediately assume it really is ALL THAT IS. It certainly seems like the universe, at first and to a certain degree it IS an universe unto itself, a veritable civilization of the psyche, as it were.

It is my current view that this mistaken apprehension of the aspect self, the you that you know yourself to be, that it is actually One with the entire Universe is actually incorrect - but an understandable mistake. It certainly seems like the entire universe due to our limited understanding of the extents of personality. (For the knit-pickers here, by personality, I do not mean "the ego" or even a super-ego, but rather, a much larger psychological gestalt.)

 

[YmirGF]

I know you were not an atheist at the time....you were an iskcon devotee...I said so! I know the manifested vision is not that which manifested the vision, but there is an aspect of cosmic awareness at play as the cause...and I know that it caused much that followed in your life...particularly concerning your mind.

Based on your apprehension of events thus far I'm not inclined to take your comments too seriously. Intuitive grasp does not seem to be one of your stronger suits.

You should have noted the context of my calling it not unusual, it was with respect to serious religious students...devotees.
You apparently have lived a fairly sheltered life since you had the experience, there are literally millions of such experiences...do a google for Mary apparitions....not that all apparitions are equal, it depends on the unfoldment stage of the soul.. Be aware, in many cases such an experience can cause delusions in that the ego imagines it was the center that was worthy of the experience...and .instead of humility before the awesome glory of higher awareness, the ego center arrogantly imagines it earned the breakthrough.....whereas it is was the soul. This happens when the soul manages to discipline the ego during the devotee stage earning the breakthrough to a higher state, but unfortunately at that point, the ego may become too enamored with own sense of worthiness that it becomes undisciplined and disobedient, thus breaking free from the straight path to join the wide and slower path..

Now, if only you actually knew what you were talking about.

There is only one Oneness of the Cosmos...and comparison of it as mine and yours is vanity...we all live, move, and have our being in the Oneness....whatever the name given to IT by the various religions...

So, you say... so, you say... <yawn>

 

[godnotgod]

and 'you' know the difference.....

The 'you' that knows is not 'I'.

 

[godnotgod]

.... this mistaken apprehension of the aspect self, the you that you know yourself to be, that it is actually One with the entire Universe is actually incorrect - .... a much larger psychological gestalt.)

So where does this 'gestalt' leave off and The Universe begin? What aspect of the gestalt is not connected to The Universe, making it separate, as you imply? Remember that The Universe is literally Everything, including all multiverses and intergalactic space. And that you, along with your 'gestalt', are embedded into The Universe, right?, like to the tune of 100%?

 

[YmirGF]

So where does this 'gestalt' leave off and The Universe begin? What aspect of the gestalt is not connected to The Universe, making it separate, as you imply? Remember that The Universe is literally Everything, including all multiverses and intergalactic space. And that you, along with your 'gestalt', are embedded into The Universe, right?, like to the tune of 100%?

That's where our inherent multidimensional nature comes into play, quite literally.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Based on your apprehension of events thus far I'm not inclined to take your comments too seriously. Intuitive grasp does not seem to be one of your stronger suits.

Now, if only you actually knew what you were talking about.

So, you say... so, you say... <yawn>

Paul...don't be sore....do what you can to reignite your passion to discover truly what you are....and then who you are.... in the context of the awesome glory of existence.