A Universe from Nothing?

[idav]

That it thinks 'I am' is its delusion. (read post #1967 re: cogito ergo sum).

According to you, the chemical reactions result in a non-material experience we call 'consciousness', which is obvious just by by being aware of one's own consciousness. My question is, where does this experience end and the Universe begin? Do you understand my question? Bear in mind that who and what you are is integrated 100% with the Universe. Therefore, what you think of as 'YOU' is a total action of the Universe, in the same way that a wave is a total action of the entire ocean. Get it?

When christians refer to 'I am' it is a reference to being the creator, as in we are all gods. There is some significance to this term that goes beyond the ego, the new testament talks about being one with the source. That doesn't necessarily mean consciousness is fundamental, it could mean the opposite that consciousness is an illusion and non-existent in any real sense of being.

 

[godnotgod]

When christians refer to 'I am' it is a reference to being the creator, as in we are all gods. There is some significance to this term that goes beyond the ego, the new testament talks about being one with the source. That doesn't necessarily mean consciousness is fundamental, it could mean the opposite that consciousness is an illusion and non-existent in any real sense of being.

I believe Artie meant this in reference to existentialism ala Descartes: 'I think, therefore, I am' (or 'I exist'), and not in the spiritual sense of the phrase, which is not about existence in time and space, but as Being, not in time or space. Being is timeless, spaceless, and has no history, nor memory, and is found ONLY in this eternal present moment. That is why Yeshua is saying: 'Before Abraham WAS, I Am', meaning he is not a product of history as Abraham was, (ie in time and space), but is pure Being that dwells in the present (ie 'I Am'). Not being subject to time and space, his true nature is unborn and therefore deathless.

To know that consciousness is an illusion requires consciousness without illusion. Artie says that 'I' is an illusion that the brain has created, and which dies with the brain. That means the brain is unreliable in determining whether consciousness is an illusion or not.

DUH!

 

[idav]

That means the brain is unreliable in determining whether consciousness is an illusion or not.

Correct so its presumptuous to say if it is fundamental. We think with our brains and no amount of silent treatment fixes that.

 

[gnostic]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mind+definition

Well, you only referred to the brain. There is a difference between brain and mind.

Basically, the brain is the organ of the body in the head that controls functions, movements, sensations, and thoughts and ability to think and reason.

The mind thinks, reasons, feels and remembers.

Then there is consciousness which is the mind and thoughts.

Mind vs brain has been debated for centuries in philosophy, especially when it comes to consciousness and unconsciousness.

Examples are this thread and on quora:
https://www.quora.com/topic/Brain-vs-the-Mind

But without the brain, there is no thinking or no mind.

If there was an accident that left you brain-dead that is irrecoverable, it is more than probable that your thoughts, mind, ego and emotion...and let's not forget, your consciousness, will not be there anymore.

The very idea of mind being separate from the brain, is nothing more than pseudoscience, perhaps great for sci-fi novels or movies, or for religion or spirituality, but nothing have ever being confirm that such a thing is possible, except through belief and faith.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Correct so its presumptuous to say if it is fundamental.

Good point.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Mystics, yogis, and other meditators have the ability to bring a complete halt to all thought, and expand consciousness far beyond the ordinary man with his limited and conditioned consciousness. The mind is completely stilled to the point that there is 'no-mind'. But the brain is still present, of course, which higher consciousness has now caused to emanate very high rates of Alpha waves. This does not mean there is more brain activity in terms of thinking, but indicates a brain in a more relaxed state. Therefore, the brain is not the mind. Mind is an illusion; a self-created principle, as an elevated state of conscious awareness clearly demonstrates. In addition, clinical studies now show that experienced meditators (esp monks) have actually grown thicker cerebral cortexes via the brain's exposure to many years of meditative experience. IOW, consciousness grows the material brain, and not the other way around.
There have been actual cases of people without much brain material at all, who have high IQ's and normal function.

What a horrible new-age muddle. It is much simpler and more accurate to say that there are different states of mind.

 

[godnotgod]

Correct so its presumptuous to say if it is fundamental. We think with our brains and no amount of silent treatment fixes that.

It has been demonstrated rather conclusively that meditation and breath control sharpen and optimize brain function. Beyond these basic improvements over conditioned mentality, kundalini yoga, for example, supercharges the brain to bring it to full potential, far beyond what our ordinary consciousness is capable of.

Consciousness is fundamental, period. You know. Before brains came into existence. IOW, brains are tools created and used by consciousness to relegate certain functions to it so consciousness can then focus on what is upfront center, like the beautiful sunset in front of you. You don't want to have your attention occupied with having to beat your heart, flow your blood, regulate your breathing or digestion at a time like this.

It is conceptual thought that puts obstacles between oneself and Reality, resulting in mistakes and other errors of judgment. You only thought that such and such was the case, but it didn't turn out that way. The brain needs to be reprogrammed by consciousness to work better.

 

[godnotgod]

What a horrible new-age muddle. It is much simpler and more accurate to say that there are different states of mind.

No, it is inaccurate in that it does not address the claim that the mind is the brain, which is what I was trying to show to be false.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Consciousness is fundamental, period.

That is a matter of religious belief. There is no evidence for your claim that the big bang was an "event in consciousness", it is nothing more than a new-age creation myth.

 

[godnotgod]

Good point.

Is it? Then why is it that mindfulness optimizes brain function?

 

[godnotgod]

That is a matter of religious belief. There is no evidence for your claim that the big bang was an "event in consciousness", it is nothing more than a new-age creation myth.

That consciousness is fundamental does not imply a religious belief in God. It is saying that all phenomena come into existence via consciousness. Did you say that the Heart Sutra states that objects arise together with consciousness?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That consciousness is fundamental does not imply a religious belief in God. It is saying that all phenomena come into existence via consciousness. Did you say that the Heart Sutra states that objects arise together with consciousness?

Saying that consciousness is fundamental is definitely a religious belief, God is irrelevant here.

The Heart Sutra says that consciousness lacks inherent / independent existence, ie it is empty, this means it cannot be fundamental in the way that you claim.
In the Buddhist suttas consciousness arises in dependence on sense organ and sense object, so again it is always conditional and not fundamental in the way that you claim.

I really wish you would stop confusing Buddhist teachings with your new-age beliefs, it is apples and oranges. If you do some quote-mining you could probably come up with some Buddhist stuff that appears to support your claims, but why you would need to do that is beyond me, particularly given that your new-age beliefs have much more in common with Hindu ideas. It is also beyond me why you continue to play at Zen, given that Zen practice is very simple here-and-now stuff, and a polar opposite to your convoluted new-age metaphysical beliefs.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Is it? Then why is it that mindfulness optimizes brain function?

You can say that brain and mind are interdependent. That says nothing about your claim that consciousness is fundamental.

 

[ArtieE]

poppycock! (this position is the latest in the materialist paradigm: there is no consciousness

LOL of course there is consciousness never said there was no consciousness the brain produces it. Guess what happens when you interrupt normal brain function? No consciousness.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

LOL of course there is consciousness never said there was no consciousness the brain produces it. Guess what happens when you interrupt normal brain function? No consciousness.

Clearly consciousness exists, though in some ways is still poorly understood. Personally I find it useful to distinguish between brain and mind, while acknowledging their interdependence.

There are a range of religious beliefs about consciousness, for example the belief that consciousness can exist independently of living brains, or the belief that consciousness is the fundamental property of the universe, and so on.

 

[godnotgod]

You can say that brain and mind are interdependent. That says nothing about your claim that consciousness is fundamental.

That does not answer the question as to why mindfulness optimizes brain function.

 

[ArtieE]

Consciousness is fundamental, period. You know. Before brains came into existence.

If so the next question is why would there be consciousness instead of no consciousness?

 

[godnotgod]

Saying that consciousness is fundamental is definitely a religious belief, God is irrelevant here.

The Heart Sutra says that consciousness lacks inherent / independent existence, ie it is empty, this means it cannot be fundamental in the way that you claim.
In the Buddhist suttas consciousness arises in dependence on sense organ and sense object, so again it is always conditional and not fundamental in the way that you claim.

We theorize that phenomena came into existence at the moment of inception of the Big Bang, along with space and time. Quantum Physics tells us that this 'material' world is possibility and potential, a virtual reality. That means that what we call the material universe is already present as potential prior to it being manifested. It is present in consciousness in an unmanifested phase, then manifested in the next phase (ie Big Bang).

Everything comes out of Nothing, just as Sound comes out of Silence.

This is not a religious belief.

I will speak about Zen as I see fit.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That does not answer the question as to why mindfulness optimizes brain function.

Possibly because mindfulness makes us more efficient.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

We theorize that phenomena came into existence at the moment of inception of the Big Bang, along with space and time. Quantum Physics tells us that this 'material' world is possibility and potential, a virtual reality. That means that what we call the material universe is already present as potential prior to it being manifested. It is present in consciousness in an unmanifested phase, then manifested in the next phase (ie Big Bang).
Everything comes out of Nothing, just as Sound comes out of Silence.
This is not a religious belief.

It is clearly new-age religious belief based on pseudo-science. I am surprised you try to deny this obvious fact.