A Universe from Nothing?

[Ben Dhyan]

Well, I am happy that you have found your "way". Really, I do.

I am a great believer in each person finding his or her own path, including what they believe in and their personal experiences in that journey.

I am just not convinced of the whole business of consciousness being outside of the brain, nor do I accept that the universe itself is conscious.

What do you call it? Brahman?

I am not convinced of this Ultimate Reality, nor of transcendent consciousness or will...especially when I see evidences for it.

Thank you, actually with people who understand that dogma and belief is not true understanding, I prefer to refer to the reality represented by such names as Brahman, God, etc., as absolute or non-dual reality, meaning it can't be known or described by any conceptual process....ever.

And as an agnostic, I understand your position of not being convinced of 'this ultimate reality', but here's to a serendipitous 'appointment with infinity' on the way...

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

Oh..he's back.... and seriously...how do you think a sun dial measures time?

Still laffin'!

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

Oh..he's back.... and seriously...how do you think a sun dial measures time?

Basically, you're supplanting the concept of measured time with the concept of eternity or infinity in which measured time is irrelevant. Therefore the movements of objects are completely irrelevant. Only their positions, properties and relative position to other objects are relevant.
I COULD IMAGINE living that way if i were a bacteria.

 

[ChristineM]

Wait.....you replied to my post #4255 where I made the statement about the religious practice of stilling the mind, to say it was not a religious practice. The reason I keep explaining to you that the link you refer to as evidence is irrelevant is that there is no evidence on the link that says or implies that the religious practice of still mind meditation is not a religious practice...or anything like that.....if you think there is, please point it out...if you can't, just let it go.

You stated transience was a religious practice

I stated, with evidence it was not only a religious practice because non religious also use it

You went onto meltdown, whether from incredulity or misunderstanding i neither know or care.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

Oh..he's back.... and seriously...how do you think a sun dial measures time?

It doesn't measure time? How about a series of positions of the sundial relative to the sun that follow a predictable procession each day, which is er.. ...um.. nothing more than the rotation of Earth ...existing in a general Non-relativistic eternity or infinite universe where the period of our planet's rotation relative to its position to the sun is irrelevant anywhere else but to Us Here...???
That would be correct.
The earth's rotation period and resulting light/dark cycle on its surface IS irrelevant anywhere else but here to us.
You have no proof to show me of eternity as opposed to a finite universe and existence, but you keep alluding to something else beyond either one. It sounds a bit like you think there is some type of conscious existence outside of physical existence or that something "alive" permeates physical existence and all of nature? I have no actual evidence to show that it doesn't.
Can you show me any examples of how such a thing would interact with physical natural processes, living things and/or us?
(giggles)
...the sundial is useless at this point.

 

[Ponder This]

re: magicians: no they don't make things vanish; they only make things appear to vanish. Dreams, however, do vanish upon awakening. The magician creates the illusion of something real vanishing, while the dream is an illusion that actually does vanish.

Dreams recur. If they come back and we experience them again, will we say they have truly vanished or merely 'appear to vanish'? We can only say they aren't real because of our sense of being awake and not because they appear to vanish from the scope of our five senses or of science.

Most humans use the five senses to determine that the 'material' world they live in is real, along with comparison to the sleep-dream state they awaken from. Science just confirms it for them. It is because of our confirmation via the five sense that we have the mutual contextual understanding you talked about.

The five senses and the science we suppose to use won't help us agree on what the waking world is if we aren't both aware of being awake. If one of us thinks that he is not awake, then he won't agree that the observations and science describe the waking world. Instead, he'll say, "This world you are describing is not the waking world. You merely think that you are awake. In reality, this world we are both perceiving and measuring with science is illusory. Even if we agree on what those observations and measurements are in this world we both appear to be experiencing, I don't agree that we are awake."

As regards the 'origin of the universe', the contextual understanding is that we are awake and discussing the real world. If we wish to wish to alter the context, then we have to declare so.

We could discuss the 'origin of this dream' or the 'origin of this universe that we perceive as real but is actually a dream'. We can ask: From what did this universe originate?

A dream is a series of thoughts, images, and sensations occurring in a person's mind during sleep. Thus, we could directly infer a dreaming entity and understand that this universe is caused by the mind of this dreaming entity. In this context, it is possible that we are the dreamers or that we are the figments of the imagination of a dreamer or something like this. In this context, we wouldn't say that the universe originated from nothing, because we would identify the dreamer as something. Our understanding of the 'universe arising from nothing' could shift to mean that it arose from a state of no thought, image, or sensation.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Still laffin'!

Hmmm....weird...how does that answer the question?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Basically, you're supplanting the concept of measured time with the concept of eternity or infinity in which measured time is irrelevant. Therefore the movements of objects are completely irrelevant. Only their positions, properties and relative position to other objects are relevant.
I COULD IMAGINE living that way if i were a bacteria.

Hmmm.....weird...it is not possible to have a discussion with someone who imagines they are a mind reader, none of that is relevant to my position. And on top of that, you did not answer the question, how does a sun dial measure time?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You stated transience was a religious practice

I stated, with evidence it was not only a religious practice because non religious also use it

You went onto meltdown, whether from incredulity or misunderstanding i neither know or care.

No, it began when I said stilling the mind was a religious practice. See my post #4255

You then replied to that by saying NO it wasn't. See your post #4259

And I then ask why you think zen still mind meditation is not a religious practice.

And until now you you slither wither and nither obfuscating with irrelevant talk about transcendence (which I presume you mean by transience ). The point where I mentioned transcendence as a goal of still mind meditation came after your post #4259 denying still mind meditation was a religious practice, and for that reason it is not germane to the point of your directly claim that stilling the mind is not a religious practice.

So please either produce your reason for believing still mind meditation is not a religious which I stated it was a religious practice in my post #4255 or let it go?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It doesn't measure time? How about a series of positions of the sundial relative to the sun that follow a predictable procession each day, which is er.. ...um.. nothing more than the rotation of Earth ...existing in a general Non-relativistic eternity or infinite universe where the period of our planet's rotation relative to its position to the sun is irrelevant anywhere else but to Us Here...???
That would be correct.
The earth's rotation period and resulting light/dark cycle on its surface IS irrelevant anywhere else but here to us.
You have no proof to show me of eternity as opposed to a finite universe and existence, but you keep alluding to something else beyond either one. It sounds a bit like you think there is some type of conscious existence outside of physical existence or that something "alive" permeates physical existence and all of nature? I have no actual evidence to show that it doesn't.
Can you show me any examples of how such a thing would interact with physical natural processes, living things and/or us?
(giggles)
...the sundial is useless at this point.

This mish mash of barely coherent chatter is saying what?

The context is this...ChristineM stated that a sun dial measures time. I asked her how does it measure time. You then replied to this question with the ROFL post. Since you appeared to want to get involved in this question, I put the question to you and I am getting all these weird incoherent replies about eternity, a finite universe, bacteria, non-relativistic eternity, living things, etc., etc..

So try again and answer the question in a concise technical way that shows simply how a sun dial measure 'time' directly?

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

This mish mash of barely coherent chatter is saying what?

The context is this...ChristineM stated that a sun dial measures time. I asked her how does it measure time. You then replied to this question with the ROFL post. Since you appeared to want to get involved in this question, I put the question to you and I am getting all these weird incoherent replies about eternity, a finite universe, bacteria, non-relativistic eternity, living things, etc., etc..

So try again and answer the question in a concise technical way that shows simply how a sun dial measure 'time' directly?

It doesn't. Nothing measures time directly because there is no "time". The sundial measures the rotation of the earth by the movement of a shadow on a half circle divided into equal increments which are relatively precise to our planet's rotation period. A rotation period is not "time".

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

Thank you, actually with people who understand that dogma and belief is not true understanding, I prefer to refer to the reality represented by such names as Brahman, God, etc., as absolute or non-dual reality, meaning it can't be known or described by any conceptual process....ever.

And as an agnostic, I understand your position of not being convinced of 'this ultimate reality', but here's to a serendipitous 'appointment with infinity' on the way...

Here's some of your strangeness.
"I prefer to refer to the reality represented by such names as Brahman, God, etc., as absolute or non-dual reality, meaning it can't be known or described by any conceptual process....ever."
What the hell does that even mean? If it can't be conceptualized then how and WHY are you referring to it as if it's something that even matters? And that "serendipitous appointment with infinity", What's that?
Show me how this gobbledygook matters in everyday life.

 

[SpiritQuest]

I'm not sure if I can post a poll on here but who here believes that the universe originated from nothing? As some of the major scientific theories from the 20th century claimed or was there an originator of some sort? Doesn't have to be God necessarily in your opinion. Who believes the universe has no beginning? I'm just curious as to what you guys believe with regard to this topic and what the basis of your belief would be?

Nothing can be described as "no-thing" because it is formless, in that it has no form. Something comes from no-thing because nothingness is the infinite potential of the unmanifested reality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It doesn't. Nothing measures time directly because there is no "time". The sundial measures the rotation of the earth by the movement of a shadow on a half circle divided into equal increments which are relatively precise to our planet's rotation period. A rotation period is not "time".

Correct, that's was the point I was trying to make to ChristineM at the time when she posited that a sun dial actually was a measurement of time. Were you aware of the context when you replied to my comment to Chrsitine with the ROFL comment?

 

[ChristineM]

No, it began when I said stilling the mind was a religious practice. See my post #4255

You then replied to that by saying NO it wasn't. See your post #4259

And I then ask why you think zen still mind meditation is not a religious practice.

And until now you you slither wither and nither obfuscating with irrelevant talk about transcendence (which I presume you mean by transience ). The point where I mentioned transcendence as a goal of still mind meditation came after your post #4259 denying still mind meditation was a religious practice, and for that reason it is not germane to the point of your directly claim that stilling the mind is not a religious practice.

So please either produce your reason for believing still mind meditation is not a religious which I stated it was a religious practice in my post #4255 or let it go?

That's correct, you said in post 4255 "There is no belief involved in stilling the mind, it is a religious practice."

In #4259 i replied "No, it is a practice, religion is only involved if you personally wish it to use it as a vehicle to achieve a result."
Please stop cherry picking

I later #4287 provided a link that you claimed was irrelevant apparently because it provided information to prove your claim wrong and mine right.
The Varieties of Transcendent Experience

Over several later posts i provided links by zen organisations and masters indicating zen was not a religion.


Gng did provide one counter link (twice), you provided nothing but incredulity and foot stomping.

So please provide a reason why a/ you think transcendence a only a religious practice? And b/ why you claim zen to be a religion?

Your projection is noted...i have not slithered and slid, i have remained true to my statement. But there is one of us who has mocked, attempted sexual belittlement, misrepresented my wording and actually lied about what i posted?

Put those spelling police blue lights on it you want to gripe about spelling on an internet forum...Yes we can all make spelling errors, those with dyslexia are more prone. Do you realise that mockery of such disability was the reason i dumped religion for the snide, backbiting and hateful group they are, don't you?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...90e4460dc71446155ee03--witches-funny-****.jpg



Edit: the image seems to have failed. Copy and paste does work, perhaps a link will too.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...90e4460dc71446155ee03--witches-funny-****.jpg

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

Correct, that's was the point I was trying to make to ChristineM at the time when she posited that a sun dial actually was a measurement of time. Were you aware of the context when you replied to my comment to Chrsitine with the ROFL comment?

Yeah, i was.
I decided to take a look at the question from a different perspective since then. I still don't see how it changes much if anything at all.

 

[ChristineM]

Correct, that's was the point I was trying to make to ChristineM at the time when she posited that a sun dial actually was a measurement of time. Were you aware of the context when you replied to my comment to Chrsitine with the ROFL comment?

I have never posted anything about a sun dial, please stop blaming me for you bs.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Here's some of your strangeness.
"I prefer to refer to the reality represented by such names as Brahman, God, etc., as absolute or non-dual reality, meaning it can't be known or described by any conceptual process....ever."
What the hell does that even mean? If it can't be conceptualized then how and WHY are you referring to it as if it's something that even matters? And that "serendipitous appointment with infinity", What's that?
Show me how this gobbledygook matters in everyday life.

Steady down son...

But first please understand that the conceptual language being used in this post is used merely as an expedient to explain how conceptual understanding has its place, but ultimately it turns out it is a barrier to direct (non-conceptual) understanding.

Are you familiar with the zen "finger pointing at the moon" analogy?

The reality represented by concept of the moon is the image of the moon.
A conceptual description of the moon is represented by the image of the finger pointing to the moon.
So the point is that is you want to 'see' the moon directly, stop looking at the finger.

Now when it comes to say, the reality represented by the concept of absolute reality, one can read and learn all there is to know conceptually about the universe, cosmology, religion, philosophy, etc. etc., but at the end of the day, these conceptual descriptions, theories, etc., are analogous to the finger pointing to 'absolute reality', they are not actually 'absolute reality'. For that reason I explain that actual reality itself is on the other side of the conceptualization of reality, in the same way that the actual moon is not, and never will be the finger pointing at the moon.

So the question you ask is how can the reality represented by say, the concept of absolute reality, be apprehended without conceptualization? The answer is... by ceasing conceptualization, cease thinking itself! When the mind is still and free from thought, there is no mental interpretation going on in the mind to obscure that which is actually present....absolute reality. The moment your mind thinks about it, you are looking at the pointing finger again.

Now I am not knocking the importance of conceptualizing, it is a prerequisite to apprehending that which the conceptualization is 'pointing' to.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yeah, i was.
I decided to take a look at the question from a different perspective since then. I still don't see how it changes much if anything at all.

Well we are now in agreement and buddies, that's a change isn't it?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have never posted anything about a sun dial, please stop blaming me for you bs.

My apologies Christine, please forgive me, it actually arose in an exchange with Idav over a week ago... #4338