Abortion is murder

[Draka]

What you are lacking is perspective, ie my perspective.

I see the zygote minutes after fertilization undergoing meiosis (cell division) it is growing, it is respirating, millions of chemical messages are racing around, activity is frantic, if you unravelled the DNA of this tiny entity it would be human DNA, it is DNA which determines species not age, a feritilised human egg certainly isnt dead or non living, it's alive and it is growing.

Fertilised human egg means it is no longer an egg, once it splits for the first time into two cells (meiosis) it has become a multicellular lifeform, a very young one, but 'scientifically' speaking a very young human.

If laws are to protect people then all should be protected by law, an unborn baby of whatever stage of development should be legally defined as Homo Sapiens Sapiens or a human being, any other label would be unscientific as well as prejudiced.

And yet you failed to respond to my post concerning funerals for abandoned fertilized eggs that don't get implanted. Or miscarriages that aren't identified as such. When you start holding proper funerals for the "humans" lost on Tampaxes then I might consider your argument to have more weight. Why is it the loss of these "humans" only matter when it is done by elective abortion and not when they are lost by other means? You don't seem to care at all about all the lost zygotes when it happens naturally. That seems pretty inconsistent me.

 

[kai]

Why am I weird kai?

because you make emotive posts that are bound to create a backlash because they are on such a personal subject and seem to enjoy it.

 

[Tau]

because you make emotive posts that are bound to create a backlash because they are on such a personal subject and seem to enjoy it.

Enjoy a backlashing?

I am not a masochist kai, but I don't mind to discussing Taboo subjects, it's my nature to wriggle like a worm toward the heart of an apple.
Its risky though, you get labelled a Troll far too frequently, for example.

Frankly as I have an INTJ personality type, most people find I am weird, but of course its all relative and I find most people equally weird...I don't like humans very much Kai as a whole, but I do see The Light in some of them and the young are unmoulded and fresh, they have the potential that the jaded adults (I include my twisted self) have lost as they have succumbed to the old order of this world, (cliche alert) the children are the sum of all hope for our species.

 

[Tau]

And yet you failed to respond to my post concerning funerals for abandoned fertilized eggs that don't get implanted. Or miscarriages that aren't identified as such. When you start holding proper funerals for the "humans" lost on Tampaxes then I might consider your argument to have more weight. Why is it the loss of these "humans" only matter when it is done by elective abortion and not when they are lost by other means? You don't seem to care at all about all the lost zygotes when it happens naturally. That seems pretty inconsistent me.

Maybe if I knew that my girlfriend/wife lost an fertilised egg, I would weep for it.
I know when she miscarried at 20 weeks a few years ago I wept then, she was unconsolable, she withdrew and refused to eat for weeks, never seen someone so sad.
We just don't know as human eggs are microscopic and only if I analysed my GFs disused tampons could I know, and that would be a strange thing to do, better if we don't know, as anyway it was nature and for its own reasons that killed the embryo not a Dr who presumably took the hippocratic oath.

 

[kai]

Enjoy a backlashing?

I am not a masochist kai, but I don't mind to discussing Taboo subjects, it's my nature to wriggle like a worm toward the heart of an apple.
Its risky though, you get labelled a Troll far too frequently, for example.

Frankly as I have an INTJ personality type, most people find I am weird, but of course its all relative and I find most people equally weird...I don't like humans very much Kai as a whole, but I do see The Light in some of them and the young are unmoulded and fresh, they have the potential that the jaded adults (I include my twisted self) have lost as they have succumbed to the old order of this world, (cliche alert) the children are the sum of all hope for our species.

ok i can get that

 

[Tau]

'If laws are to protect people then all should be protected by law, an unborn baby of whatever stage of development should be legally defined as Homo Sapiens Sapiens or a human being, any other label would be unscientific as well as prejudiced.'

I am at heart an annoying 'parental authortarian' like Marge Simpson, I think the Law must be blind if it is to remain objective and altruistic, blind to race, blind to wealth, blind to nationality, blind to gender, blind to age...all ages.

As usual our solution to a problem is 'kill it'.
It's a dangerous psychology.
There must be better ways and technology I suspect will once again step in and lend a hand soon.

 

[Fluffy]

A fertilised human zygote is ALIVE and genetically HUMAN.

Criteria satisfied.

Some other things that are alive and genetically human:

• The skin cells you are murdering by typing a reply to me.
• The liver cells you are murdering whenever you drink alcohol.
• The sperm you are murdering whenever you masturbate or have sex.

 

[Hexaqua_David(II)]

Some other things that are alive and genetically human:

• The skin cells you are murdering by typing a reply to me.
• The liver cells you are murdering whenever you drink alcohol.
• The sperm you are murdering whenever you masturbate or have sex.

Although sperm are only haploid remember. Still, good point; he almost got away with that!

 

[Tau]

Some other things that are alive and genetically human:

• The skin cells you are murdering by typing a reply to me.
• The liver cells you are murdering whenever you drink alcohol.
• The sperm you are murdering whenever you masturbate or have sex.

Of course but they are not fertilised eggs containing DNA that is different to the DNA of the Mother that grew it.

A cell from a multi cellular animal is alive but unless you clone it into an egg it is never going to grow into an embryo, a rather spurious argument...

 

[doppelganger]

As usual our solution to a problem is 'kill it'.
It's a dangerous psychology.

That reflects a very limited and narrow understanding of the "problem." What is offered by those who can't, no matter what, bring themselves past the endless and pointless aesthetic and moral arguments? Condemn people for it, even though it doesn't solve anything (it doesn't even reduce the number of abortions, instead making them more dangerous and psychologically traumatizing). Which is also a dangerous philosophy. Maybe even a more dangerous philosophy than allowing women a choice about their bodies, which in a social and psychological sense is an aspect of the real issue percolating in the substratum beneath "abortion." Dominance and social injustice.

 

[Tau]

That reflects a very limited and narrow understanding of the "problem." What is offered by those who can't, no matter what, bring themselves past the endless and pointless aesthetic and moral arguments? Condemn people for it, even though it doesn't solve anything (it doesn't even reduce the number of abortions, instead making them more dangerous and psychologically traumatizing). Which is also a dangerous philosophy. Maybe even a more dangerous philosophy than allowing women a choice about their bodies, which in a social and psychological sense is an aspect of the real issue percolating in the substratum beneath "abortion." Dominance and social injustice.

Your perception in my view is equally limited and narrow minded, you seem to think it all centres on the rights of an individual, thats your peverse philosophy (to me) for me we have no rights only duties to ourselves and each other.

I understand the issue and all the rammifications of my stance, do not insult my intelligence.

 

[Fluffy]

Of course but they are not fertilised eggs containing DNA that is different to the DNA of the Mother that grew it.

A cell from a multi cellular animal is alive but unless you clone it into an egg it is never going to grow into an embryo, a rather spurious argument...

I fully agree Tau.

However, you appeared to be saying that the only criteria for murder is that an organism was alive and was genetically human. My point was that there had to be more to it than this.

So the complete list is as follows:
1) Genetically human
2) Alive
3) Fertilised eggs
4) Contain DNA that is different to the DNA of the mother

I still take issue with the 4th condition. If the DNA of a women was cloned into one of her eggs then I don't see why that being should be seen as different from any other.

Beyond that I also take issue with the 1st condition. If we altered the brain of a dolphin, for example, so that it was clearly different from a human being but able to speak, think e.t.c. then surely it would be murder to kill that dolphin? But then if it is features beyond "humaness" that make something murder then clearly it is not the "humaness" of the foetus (or the humaness of any human!) that make killing that foetus murder. It is other features such as the ability to respond to external stimuli which is lacking in a fertilised egg.

 

[Tau]

I fully agree Tau.

However, you appeared to be saying that the only criteria for murder is that an organism was alive and was genetically human. My point was that there had to be more to it than this.

So the complete list is as follows:
1) Genetically human
2) Alive
3) Fertilised eggs
4) Contain DNA that is different to the DNA of the mother

I still take issue with the 4th condition. If the DNA of a women was cloned into one of her eggs then I don't see why that being should be seen as different from any other.

Beyond that I also take issue with the 1st condition. If we altered the brain of a dolphin, for example, so that it was clearly different from a human being but able to speak, think e.t.c. then surely it would be murder to kill that dolphin? But then if it is features beyond "humaness" that make something murder then clearly it is not the "humaness" of the foetus (or the humaness of any human!) that make killing that foetus murder. It is other features such as the ability to respond to external stimuli which is lacking in a fertilised egg.

I am a vegetarian fluffy....
Killing a dolphin is murder to me hehe.
But thats getting into muddier waters!

 

[Draka]

I have to agree with Fluffy about the DNA thing. If a woman were to have one of her eggs implanted with a sample of her own DNA and therefore carry a pregnancy of her own clone...would that not be human?

 

[doppelganger]

Your perception in my view is equally limited and narrow minded, you seem to think it all centres on the rights of an individual

Straw man. I've not said anything of the kind. You're making that up because it's easier than trying to understand that there's more than the black and white you insist upon seeing. You insult your own intelligence.

 

[Tau]

Straw man. I've not said anything of the kind. You're making that up because it's easier than trying to understand that there's more than the black and white you insist upon seeing. You insult your own intelligence.

'That reflects a very limited and narrow understanding of the "problem.'
That was in your post, an implication I don't understand the problem, that I am narrow minded, dont play with me doppelganger, I despise gameplay.
I don't give a damn what you think, truly I don't, on a personal level I just resent your labelling, you know nothing about me.
Your intelligence is questionable if you don't understand my basic premise, which is that a human embryo is HUMAN!

What is so GREY about that?

The only 'greyness' are the issues of convenience and personal responsibility.....that is all.

But whatever Doppelganger....easy for you to say, good job your mother didnt terminate you huh?
If she did you wouldnt be here to argue the point, rather ironic really.

 

[Tau]

I have to agree with Fluffy about the DNA thing. If a woman were to have one of her eggs implanted with a sample of her own DNA and therefore carry a pregnancy of her own clone...would that not be human?

Of course it would be human, she would have technically asexually reproduced, I don't see how this affects anything, terminating her clone would still be termination, but anyways its not likely to be a problem facing many women, ok it has the same genes as its mother but that doesn't rule it out as a valid human.
Leave that one for the future!

 

[logician]

Let the woman control her own body, not the church down the street, or a nanny state.

 

[Circle_One]

Let the woman control her own body, not the church down the street, or a nanny state.

This, honestly, is precisely why I'm pro-choice. Who the hell is ANYONE to tell me or any other woman what we can and can't do with our bodies.

As soon as the church down the street, or the government, or all the bleeding heart pro-lifers out there step up and agree to pay for the baby, the clothing, the food, the housing, the furniture, etc etc the young teenage girl around the corner is about to abort, then they all can stay the hell out of it. Thankyouverymuch.

 

[Tau]

This, honestly, is precisely why I'm pro-choice. Who the hell is ANYONE to tell me or any other woman what we can and can't do with our bodies.

As soon as the church down the street, or the government, or all the bleeding heart pro-lifers out there step up and agree to pay for the baby, the clothing, the food, the housing, the furniture, etc etc the young teenage girl around the corner is about to abort, then they all can stay the hell out of it. Thankyouverymuch.

If its about the money then we can raise taxes and the State will assume full responsibility, after all as a society we are responsible for each other and whatever happens within it.

No problem, we waste A LOT of money on stupid things like nuclear weapons and expensive champagne, the unwanted are worth the investment.

Il get down my local Bleeding Heart Bank right away......