Abortion is never justifiable, even in rape cases

[Sonofason]

Thank you captain obvious. The poster said if Abraham killed his infant son it would have been an abortion

But it wouldn't have been an abortion, it would have been murder.

 

[Sonofason]

I guess it sounds slightly more poetic to refer to God as the potter, and we as the clay, than referring to him as the puppet master, and we as the puppets.
But whichever analogy you want to use, this Creator has either directly created or allowed to develop a race with the capacity for critical thought. If his judgement is a hypocritical one which condemns me for using it, then so be it.

Then so be it.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Actually, I believe it is.

1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
murder - definition of murder by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

So when God instructed us not to kill, he was talking about the definition of 'murder' as contained in the Free Online Dictionary?

You really need to think about these issues a bit more closely, I think.

Abortion is not murder. Obviously an embryo is not 'another human'.

 

[Sonofason]

But you are not God. If I was to get a direct answer from God himself, I promise, I would convert in a heartbeat, I assure you, but I haven't. I've only heard from people claiming to speak for God. Anyone can claim to speak on behalf of God. I could claim that God told me that every Friday is "Funny-Hat Friday," but that does not make it so.

Yes, if God has not spoken to you, and you claim that he has, your claim would be untrue.

 

[Sonofason]

Um.....

Um.... that is a misquote of what you said. There is no period after the word 'down' in your quote.

Are you just trying to duck my question? To distort what you said so that you don't have to answer?

Let me ask you again: How do you know that the Bible writers wrote down the will of God?



Actually I'm the forum expert on that difference. It's why you seem so confused to me regarding it.



Ah. A well-known fact... says the expert on the difference between believing something and knowing something. Yikes.

'Murder' means 'offending secular laws regarding homicide'.

So which secular laws was God instructing us not to offend?

If they were not secular laws but rather divine laws, where can I find God's statutes regarding homicide? To what statutes is the commandment pointing?



Sure. And abortion is not murder, according to the Bible. I suggest you go back and do some reading. Dig deeper.

Your ad-hominem attacks cause me to search elsewhere for honest intellectual debate. Get back to me when you are capable of losing a debate in good spirit.

 

[Sonofason]

So when God instructed us not to kill, he was talking about the definition of 'murder' as contained in the Free Online Dictionary?

You really need to think about these issues a bit more closely, I think.

Abortion is not murder. Obviously an embryo is not 'another human'.

Just do a little research on it. Don't take my word for it.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Yes, if God has not spoken to you, and you claim that he has, your claim would be untrue.

Why is the same not true for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, etc.? Why did he speak to them, but not us today? Also, why does he need people to speak or write on his behalf anyway? Can he not speak for himself?

 

[Sonofason]

Why is the same not true for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, etc.? Why did he speak to them, but not us today? Also, why does he need people to speak or write on his behalf anyway? Can he not speak for himself?

God speaks to those who love and obey Him. If you loved God, if you obeyed God, He would speak to you, and then you could write down what He said too.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Yes, if God has not spoken to you, and you claim that he has, your claim would be untrue.

But you said here that if I claimed that God has spoken to me, then my claim would be untrue.

 

[Sonofason]

But you said here that if I claimed that God has spoken to me, then my claim would be untrue.

I never said that. Show me the quote. What number was the post you are referring to. Prove what you say is true.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Yes, if God has not spoken to you, and you claim that he has, your claim would be untrue.

Here ya' go.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

So then, are you going to prove that the God of the Islamic people, and the God of the Hindu people, and the God of the Buddhist people, and the God of Christian people, and the God of the Jewish people is not one God? If not, you have shown nothing.

Except the specific testimony of those people.

By definition those religions can't all be correct. If your trying to say "oh well its not the true definition of god" or some such nonesense then I suppose you can move the goalposts till it makes you happy.

 

[Sonofason]

adi2d had written:

Abortion is not murder. Maybe you should dig a little deeper also

Sonofason had responded:

Actually, I believe it is.

1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
murder - definition of murder by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

AmbiguousGuy writes:

So when God instructed us not to kill, he was talking about the definition of 'murder' as contained in the Free Online Dictionary?

I believe, for the purposes of this discussion, the definitions that I provided are sufficient for understanding what God was saying when He gave this commandment to His people through Moses. I seriously doubt that the concept of murder has changed very much over the past few millennium.

AmbiguousGuy writes:

You really need to think about these issues a bit more closely, I think.

I intend to.

AmbiguousGuy writes:

Abortion is not murder. Obviously an embryo is not 'another human'.

In my opinion abortion is murder.

There is nothing obvious about an ambryo not being human. A human embryo is human.

General: an organism in early stages of development, before hatching from an egg.

Human: A fertilized egg that has begun cell division, often called a pre-embryo (for pre-implantation embryo). An embryo is now defined as a later stage, i.e. at the completion of" the pre-embryonic stage, which is considered to end at about day 14. The term, embryo, is used to describe the early stages of fetal growth, from conception to the eighth week of pregnancy.

http://groups.molbiosci.northwestern.edu/holmgren/Glossary/Definitions/Def-E/embryo.html

There are stages of development that human beings undergo. Once two human haploid gametes become fused with one another, when the ovum is fertilized, a human zygote is formed. This human zygote then develops into a human embryo, which undergoes further development becomming a human fetus, which further develops and is born. At this point, the human fetus becomes a human infant. After some time, the human infant grows into a human child. This human child further develops into a human adolescent, which further develops into a human adult. Forgive me if I've missed a step or two.

Through all of its various stages of development, that which is human remains human. The human zygote, the human embryo, the human fetus, the human infant, the human child, and the human adult are all human beings. They all have human DNA. They are completely and entirely human. They are persons.

fetus - a human being or animal in the later stages of development before it is born.
Fetus - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Your ad-hominem attacks cause me to search elsewhere for honest intellectual debate. Get back to me when you are capable of losing a debate in good spirit.

Of course I knew you weren't ready for this, but I thought you might last a bit longer.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Just do a little research on it. Don't take my word for it.

I have asked God. God tells me that an embryo is not a human and therefore -- just like a war opponent -- does not fall under His commandment against killing.

 

[Mycroft]

I have asked God. God tells me that an embryo is not a human and therefore -- just like a war opponent -- does not fall under His commandment against killing.

Are you being sarcastic here? Or are you seriously claiming god speaks to you?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Are you being sarcastic here? Or are you seriously claiming god speaks to you?

All language is poetry, Quatermass. Most especially religious language.

 

[Mycroft]

All language is poetry, Quatermass. Most especially religious language.

Stop dodging the question.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Stop dodging the question.

Stop asking silly questions with no good answer to them.

You want to know if some physically-existing BigGuy-in-the-Sky speaks physical words to me?

Nah. That's such a simplistic understanding of 'God' and 'speak' that I have little time for it.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I believe, for the purposes of this discussion, the definitions that I provided are sufficient for understanding what God was saying when He gave this commandment to His people through Moses. I seriously doubt that the concept of murder has changed very much over the past few millennium.

You'd be demonstrably wrong. In fact, the concept of murder changes constantly across the world. At any moment, some legislators somewhere are rewriting their homicide laws.

It's why I asked you which laws God was speaking about when he told us not to murder. The probably-oral laws of the wandering Jews?

I'm guessing they allowed the negligent killing of their slaves. No penalty. Do you agree that we should be allowed to negligentally kill someone without penalty?

There is nothing obvious about an ambryo not being human. A human embryo is human.

Is that your personal belief? Or a truth which transcends the opinion of sonofason?