Abortion

[leibowde84]

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that telling young people they cannot control themselves then giving them abortifacients, condoms and abortions isn't helping.

Who is telling young people that they can't control themselves?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The duplicating cells have a soul and are in the "much more" care of God. The problem is you are both saying only empirical things exist, and then using empiricism to justify this rationale.

So when a zygote splits and forms 2 separate embryos, the resulting twins share a soul? Or how does that work?

 

[leibowde84]

Please understand how offensive your concept is to a religious person.

How so? Mary was a young virgin, right?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The truth is that runaway teen pregnancy rates didn't exist pre-Roe v. Wade in America. Many people graduated college into the late 60s as virgins. No.

Evidence?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The truth is that runaway teen pregnancy rates didn't exist pre-Roe v. Wade in America. Many people graduated college into the late 60s as virgins. No.

Are you serious?

 

[McBell]

The truth is that runaway teen pregnancy rates didn't exist pre-Roe v. Wade in America. Many people graduated college into the late 60s as virgins. No.

I agree.
the rates did not exist.
But that is only because there was no central reporting agency for the stats to be sent to.

Now if you mean there were no runaway teen pregnancies, you are just plain flat out wrong.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The duplicating cells have a soul and are in the "much more" care of God.

So you are an animist of a sort?

 

[JoStories]

Actually, BB hasn't looked at photos of blastocysts in a while. And? The question for us is more than perfect knowledge but rather, right morality. All of us desire to be ethical and true, so let's be so. I don't know everything about everything, but I do know when someone is criticizing my intelligence rather than the facts I've brought to bear.

Abortion is a horror, a killer and a moral evil. The West is falling apart around our ears, and since Roe v. Wade in the USA for sure.

The fact that the West is falling apart has more to do with the two Bushes, and their collective idiocy and then the Christian right, who would rather line their pockets than feed our own children. Or do you deny that the GOP has more interest in money than they do in the average citizen? Most of those GOP are Christian, you realize. Where is the teachings of your Christ with them and their warmongering? Or them lining their pockets with our elders social security or the drug companies who charge 10 dollars for an aspirin. Abortion has nothing to do with why the West is failing and you know that.

 

[SomeRandom]

The truth is that runaway teen pregnancy rates didn't exist pre-Roe v. Wade in America. Many people graduated college into the late 60s as virgins. No.

You do realise of course that such stats wouldn't exist because it wasn't talked about, right? Teen mothers often had their babies secretly aborted or taken (in some cases forcefully by hospital staff) to be put up for adoption so the family could save face.
The official statistics don't exist because no one did any official reports on either phenomenon. But it still happened all the same.

The closest we have is probably the Kinsey Study done in like the 40s.
In which he had to keep people anonymous anyway because the strict "sodomy" laws during the era essentially made most of his surveyed recipients criminals.
Guess what he found? Many people were having sex before marriage!! Including teenagers.
Le gasp!

 

[Sand Dancer]

The truth is that runaway teen pregnancy rates didn't exist pre-Roe v. Wade in America. Many people graduated college into the late 60s as virgins. No.

Not true, they just got married before the baby was born or were sent to a home for unwed mothers. Nowadays they are less likely to do either.

 

[columbus]

The truth is that runaway teen pregnancy rates didn't exist pre-Roe v. Wade in America. Many people graduated college into the late 60s as virgins. No.

I believe that this is true. I'm not sure if it is possible to get reliable statistics. The prevailing attitude was "Don't talk about it." But social pressure was far more intense to stay out of dangerous situations, young people were much better monitored, and the media did not glorify sex the way it does now.
Things were very different. Irresponsible sex was much harder to come by and I am certain that children, overall, were better off for it.
Tom

 

[SkepticThinker]

I believe that this is true. I'm not sure if it is possible to get reliable statistics. The prevailing attitude was "Don't talk about it." But social pressure was far more intense to stay out of dangerous situations, young people were much better monitored, and the media did not glorify sex the way it does now.
Things were very different. Irresponsible sex was much harder to come by and I am certain that children, overall, were better off for it.
Tom

My grandmother used to work at some kind of Catholic "home for wayward girls" in the 50s and 60s where she said they would escort unmarried pregnant women in and out the back door on a regular basis. They'd give birth then quietly be escorted back out the back door, usually without their babies. She even mentioned on a couple of occasions that she had seen some pregnant nuns in the facility. So for us to think that there were very few or no young pregnant women or that young people were not engaging in sexual behavior until very recently is a mistake, I think. It was just done in back rooms in secret locations, so we didn't hear much about it. My grandmother used to say also that pregnancy (even for married women) wasn't something that was talked about in the open like it is now.

 

[columbus]

So for us to think that there were very few or no young pregnant women or that young people were not engaging in sexual behavior until very recently is a mistake, I think.

Which is why I didn't say that. I said that I believe that there were less.
I was one of those babies. But even in 1958, before safe and legal abortion, there weren't that many children for adoptive parents. My folks had a daughter in the normal way. But then my mom had issues, a tubal pregnancy. So they had to adopt to get the big Catholic family they wanted. Once they got me, there weren't any more kids to be had in the USA. They had a healthy girl and boy, the agencies were going to give the kids to parents who didn't. Because there weren't that many. My parents had to pull strings to get children from a Canadian orphanage.
The culture was very different then.
Tom

 

[BilliardsBall]

So, it is a murder only if you believe in souls and God, right?

Ciao

- viole

Why change the subject? Let's start with the folly of saying souls don't exist because only empirical things exist, while using empiricism as your only source of proof. If any one person at one time in history had a spiritual experience that is real, empiricism isn't all there is.

But to answer your question, murder is the taking of a life. Adding "viability" is a legal construction.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, you mentioned that. I'm trying to dig deeper.

Nobody is giving young people abortions and abortifacients in any sex ed class that I'm aware of.

And just once again, who is talking about telling young people they can't control themselves? Why do you keep ignoring the reality that practically every human being is going to have sex at some point in life and that they (and society) are better off being educated on the subject than not? You just keep repeating the above assertion over and over.

What do you suggest be done then?

Not in Sex Ed class, but surely you know that school counselors and nurses offer contraception and leads to abortion providers. Nor am I ignoring the reality of human sexuality, although we all managed to exist here though there weren't sex ed classes for thousands of years.

What I am saying is tell kids to keep it in their pants. Why? Because we don't say, "Gosh, people can't help but drink and drive, so here's some free booze and car keys for 12 year olds." Basta! Enough!

 

[BilliardsBall]

No what?
I am very much aware that things were different in the not so distant past. And I believe that RvW is a big part of why the USA has such a big problem with irresponsible people having sex and babies that they won't take care of.
One of the indirect and counterintuitive results of RvW is a bunch of kids raised by irresponsible parents. People who are insufficiently responsible to use effective birth control still think that they are entitled to potentially fertile sex. Then, they are also too irresponsible to get an abortion. Then too irresponsible to take proper care of their child.
Then the child grows up in an environment where parental responsibility is "optional", and the cycle begins again when they are teens.

Tom

Thank you. I hope you can appreciate the perspective of those who respectfully disagree, and who say that responsibility includes marriage and parenthood, too.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Which is why I didn't say that. I said that I believe that there were less.
I was one of those babies. But even in 1958, before safe and legal abortion, there weren't that many children for adoptive parents. My folks had a daughter in the normal way. But then my mom had issues, a tubal pregnancy. So they had to adopt to get the big Catholic family they wanted. Once they got me, there weren't any more kids to be had in the USA. They had a healthy girl and boy, the agencies were going to give the kids to parents who didn't. Because there weren't that many. My parents had to pull strings to get children from a Canadian orphanage.
The culture was very different then.
Tom

"The culture is different" is not justification for anything, not rape, not murder.

 

[McBell]

Why change the subject? Let's start with the folly of saying souls don't exist because only empirical things exist,

Other than yourself, who has made that claim?

If any one person at one time in history had a spiritual experience that is real, empiricism isn't all there is.

This is just not true.
However, who, other than yourself, has made the claim that empiricism is all there is?

But to answer your question, murder is the taking of a life. Adding "viability" is a legal construction.

Murder is an unlawful killing.
Not all taking of life is murder.
I.E. abortion in the USA.

 

[BilliardsBall]

All, what planet are you on today?

"Good girls" and even "good guys" just didn't into the 60's. The fact that are parents and grandparents but not our great-grandparents are degenerates is no excuse.

Will anyone here define what a "mixed message" is and then explain how giving condoms out while also talking about the benefits of abstinence is a univocal message?

 

[McBell]

although we all managed to exist here though there weren't sex ed classes for thousands of years.

Which only goes to show that it is better to not talk about sex at all than it is to tell kids to not have sex.

What I am saying is tell kids to keep it in their pants. Why? Because we don't say, "Gosh, people can't help but drink and drive, so here's some free booze and car keys for 12 year olds." Basta! Enough!

Sad that you are so emotionally wrapped up in this topic that you cannot see how your analogy is an epic fail.