McBell
Unbound
yes, it reveals I am not the stick in the mud you are.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
after five years, i left islam. here's one huge contradiction in the qur`an
- Thread starter Kelvin Davidson
- Start date
firedragon
Veteran Member
Lol. Alles Gut.
Crypto2015
Active Member
Is it is very well attested indeed and it is as likely to have happened as any other event in Islamic history. The events surrounding the Satanic verse were reported by extremely reliable Islamic sources such as Al-Tabari and Ibn Sa'd.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Now be fair. These stories have been widely rejected in the Muslim world for over 700 years... Oddly, the early chroniclers did mention it, but later "scholars" have pretty well killed the idea regardless what the early writers had reported.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Al-Tabari lived somewhere around 860 AD. How could he have narrated this story?
You cited Ibn Saad. Splitting of the moon was narrated by Anas bin Malik, Abdullah bin masud and ibn abbas and some others as well. Do you believe this happened?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_bin_Masud
Al-Tabari also reported that the earth rests on a large fish. Do you believe that is true as well?
If not, why the double standard?
Crypto2015
Active Member
When it comes to reporting a historical event who is more credible: a source that is closer to the events or a recent source?
Crypto2015
Active Member
Muslims believe that the sun sets in a pool of muddy water. So, Al-Tabari is not less reasonable just because he believed that the earth rested on a fish. Besides, Al-Tabari is not the only one who reported the events surrounding the Satanic Verses. Other highly credible sources are Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Sa'd. Basically all of the earliest Muslim scholars believed that Muhammad once spoke in the name of Satan. Ibn Hajar, a recognized authority on Islamic traditions wrote: "As we have mentioned above, three of its chains of narrators satisfy the conditions requisite for an authentic report" ("Sirat Un Nabi", page 214, by Allama Shibli Nu'mani, translated by M. Tayyib Bakhsh Budayuni, Volume 1, published by Kazi Publications, Lahore Pakistan.)
firedragon
Veteran Member
Mate. You have taken a source 250 years late. 8 generations down.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No. They dont.
You are trying to justify the sanad to me. Ill tell you something mate, you dont have a clue about it.
And do you understand that you are talking about documents written 250 years later. Actually they were not written at least a century after that also. If you say one event is true, then the other event has to be true. So Muhammed did split the moon according to your own standards.
MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
]
The prophet Muhammad wasn't born until about, roughly 600 years after Jesus was alive. Just some trivia...anyway the bible does speak about false prophets in several books, for example John of patmos claimed the antichrist would be accompanied by a false prophet .
The prophet Muhammad wasn't born until about, roughly 600 years after Jesus was alive. Just some trivia...anyway the bible does speak about false prophets in several books, for example John of patmos claimed the antichrist would be accompanied by a false prophet .
Crypto2015
Active Member
What are you talking about? The Satanic verses are contained in Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah (written between 706-773 AD), in Al-Wakidi's (748-822 AD) books (these books are among the earliest in Islamic history), in Al-Tabari's (839-923 AD) works, and Ibn Sa'd's (784-845 AD) works. Muhammad is supposed to have been born in 570 AD and to have died in 632 AD. The trustworthiest and earliest historical sources for Muhammad's life contain the episode of the Satanic Verses.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Ibn Ishaq never wrote his work down mate. That's the earliest you have cited. How can you prove that ibn Ishaq historically narrated the so called 'satanic verses' if there is such a thing?
You are just quoting various names you find my friend. It was after ibn bakkai, ibn Hisham whose work has survived and they don't contain the said story.
Cheers.
Crypto2015
Active Member
You know surprisingly little about your own religion
Muḥammad ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār (/ɪˈʃɑːk/; according to some sources, ibn Khabbār, or Kūmān, or Kūtān,[3] Arabic: محمد بن إسحاق بن يسار بن خيار, or simply ibn Isḥaq, ابن إسحاق, meaning "the son of Isaac"; died 767 or 761[2]) was an Arab Muslim historian andhagiographer. Ibn Ishaq collected oral traditions that formed the basis of an important biography of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.
Ibn Isḥaq collected oral traditions about the life of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. These traditions, which he orally dictated to his pupils,[8] are now known collectively as Sīratu Rasūli l-Lāh (Arabic: سيرة رسول الله "Life of the Messenger of God") and survive mainly in the following sources:
- An edited copy, or recension, of his work by his student al-Bakka'i, which was further edited by ibn Hisham. Al-Bakka'i's work has perished and only ibn Hisham's has survived, in copies.[10]
- An edited copy, or recension, prepared by his student Salamah ibn Fadl al-Ansari. This also has perished, and survives only in the copious extracts to be found in the voluminous History of the Prophets and Kings by Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari.[10][11]
- Fragments of several other recensions. Guillaume lists them on p. xxx of his preface, but regards most of them as so fragmentary as to be of little worth.
Following the publication of previously unknown fragments of ibn Isḥaq's traditions, recent scholarship suggests that ibn Isḥaq did not commit to writing any of the traditions now extant, but they were narrated orally to his transmitters. These new texts, found in accounts by Salama al-Ḥarranī and Yūnus ibn Bukayr, were hitherto unknown and contain versions different from those found in other works.[13]
The original text of the Sīrat Rasūl Allāh by Ibn Ishaq did not survive. Yet it was one of the earliest substantial biographies of Muhammad. Fortunately, as noted above, much of the original text was copied over into a work of his own by Ibn Hisham (Basra; Fustat c. 218 A.H.).[14]
Ibn Hisham also "abbreviated, annotated, and sometimes altered" the text of Ibn Ishaq, according to Guillaume (at p. xvii). Interpolations made by Ibn Hisham are said to be recognizable and can be deleted, leaving as a remainder, a so-called "edited" version of Ibn Ishaq's original text (otherwise lost). In addition, Guillaume (at p. xxxi) points out that Ibn Hisham's version omits various narratives in the text which were given by al-Tabari in his History.[15][16] In these passages al-Tabari expressly cites Ibn Ishaq as a source.[17][18]
Thus can be reconstructed an 'improved' "edited" text, i.e., by distinguishing or removing Ibn Hisham's additions, and by adding from al-Tabari passages attributed to Ibn Ishaq. Yet the result's degree of approximation to Ibn Ishaq's original text can only be conjectured. Such a reconstruction is available, e.g., in Guillaume's translation.[19] Here, Ibn Ishaq's introductory chapters describe pre-Islamic Arabia, before he then commences with the narratives surrounding the life of Muhammad (in Guillaume at pp. 109–690).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq#Original_versions.2C_survival
Crypto2015
Active Member
Here is the excerpt from Guillaume's translation of Sirat Rasull Allah
"(Tabari). Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them, and the method he adopted is what Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. B. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of Medina from M. B. Ka'b al-Qurazi: When the apostle saw what his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him. Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle that made his task so difficult could be removed; so that he meditated on the project and longed for it and it was dear to him. Then God sent down "by the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire," and when he reached His words "Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other (5), Satan, when he was mediating upon it, and desiring to bring it (sc. reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue "these are the exalted Gharaniq (1) whose intercession is approved. (2)" When Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods.and they listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought them from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or a slip, and when he reached the prostration (3) and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated, except al-Walid b. Al-Mughira who was an old man who could not do so, so he took a handful of dirt from the valley and bent over it. Then the people dispersed and Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, "Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved."
The news reached the prophet's companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said, "What have you done Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you." The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of God. So God sent down (a revelation), for He was merciful to him, comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So God annulled what Satan had suggested and God established His verses i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. The God sent down: "We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions into his longing. But God will annul what Satan has suggested. Then God will establish his verses, God being knowing and wise. (4). Thus God relieved his prophet's grief, and made him feel safe from his fears and annulled what Satan had suggested in the words used above about their gods by his revelation. "Are yours the males and His the females? That were indeed an unfair division" (i.e. most unjust); "they are nothing but names which your fathers gave them" as far as the words "to whom he pleases and accepts" (5) i.e. how can the intercession of their gods avail with Him?
When the annulment of what Satan had put upon the prophet's tongue came from God, Quraysh said: "Muhammad has repented of what he said about the position of your gods with Allah, altered it and brought something else." Now those two words which Satan had put upon the apostle's tongue were in the mouth of every polytheist and they became more violently hostile to the Muslims and the apostle's followers. Meanwhile those of his companions who had left Abyssinia when they heard that the people of Mecca had accepted Islam when they prostrated themselves with the apostle, heard when they approached Mecca that the report was false and none came into the town without the promise of protection or secretly. Of those who did come into Mecca and stayed there until he migrated to Medina and were present at Badr with him was Uthman B. Affan... with his wife Ruqayya d. of the apostle and Abu Hudhayfa b. Zutba with his wife Sahla d. of Suhayl, and a number of others, in all thirty-three men (1). ...
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/sverses.htm
"(Tabari). Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them, and the method he adopted is what Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. B. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of Medina from M. B. Ka'b al-Qurazi: When the apostle saw what his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him. Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle that made his task so difficult could be removed; so that he meditated on the project and longed for it and it was dear to him. Then God sent down "by the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire," and when he reached His words "Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other (5), Satan, when he was mediating upon it, and desiring to bring it (sc. reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue "these are the exalted Gharaniq (1) whose intercession is approved. (2)" When Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods.and they listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought them from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or a slip, and when he reached the prostration (3) and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated, except al-Walid b. Al-Mughira who was an old man who could not do so, so he took a handful of dirt from the valley and bent over it. Then the people dispersed and Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, "Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved."
The news reached the prophet's companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said, "What have you done Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you." The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of God. So God sent down (a revelation), for He was merciful to him, comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So God annulled what Satan had suggested and God established His verses i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. The God sent down: "We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions into his longing. But God will annul what Satan has suggested. Then God will establish his verses, God being knowing and wise. (4). Thus God relieved his prophet's grief, and made him feel safe from his fears and annulled what Satan had suggested in the words used above about their gods by his revelation. "Are yours the males and His the females? That were indeed an unfair division" (i.e. most unjust); "they are nothing but names which your fathers gave them" as far as the words "to whom he pleases and accepts" (5) i.e. how can the intercession of their gods avail with Him?
When the annulment of what Satan had put upon the prophet's tongue came from God, Quraysh said: "Muhammad has repented of what he said about the position of your gods with Allah, altered it and brought something else." Now those two words which Satan had put upon the apostle's tongue were in the mouth of every polytheist and they became more violently hostile to the Muslims and the apostle's followers. Meanwhile those of his companions who had left Abyssinia when they heard that the people of Mecca had accepted Islam when they prostrated themselves with the apostle, heard when they approached Mecca that the report was false and none came into the town without the promise of protection or secretly. Of those who did come into Mecca and stayed there until he migrated to Medina and were present at Badr with him was Uthman B. Affan... with his wife Ruqayya d. of the apostle and Abu Hudhayfa b. Zutba with his wife Sahla d. of Suhayl, and a number of others, in all thirty-three men (1). ...
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/sverses.htm
firedragon
Veteran Member
firedragon
Veteran Member
Thanks for the brand new information. It's like divine intervention. Shukraan jazeelan.
Crypto2015
Active Member
Are you joking? You said that he didn't write anything.
Augustus
…
I think it is pretty clear that many early Muslims considered the verse of the cranes incident to be factual, and later theologians tried to erase it from history when it became embarrassing due to changing theology. Similar to how Dhul Qarnayan was considered to be Alexander until people realised he was a polytheist, rather than the pious monotheist of the Christian Alexander romance.
However, I also believe that there is no such thing as reliable early islamic historical sources.
Muhammed splitting the moon is mutawatir after all, so if you don't accept that as true then you need to question most other things also.
If it is likely that much of the sirah is unreliable (from an academic perspective anyway), I'm not sure it is consistent to pick and choose certain aspects based on which you would like to be true.
These sources tell us more about what Muslims thought in the 8th and 9th c Iraq than what actually happened in 7th century hijaz.
Crypto2015
Active Member
I have never read anything regarding Muhammad splitting the moon. However, if the early sources report that I am almost sure that the reports are not based on eyewitnesses' accounts, except of course for the account given by Muhammad himself. So, the scholars probably report it as something in which they believed simply because they trusted in Muhammad's testimony. The Satanic Verses are a different thing, though. Muhammad was certainly embarrassed by his own behaviour during the Satanic Verses episode. So, almost for certain they didn't get this story just from Muhammad. This is a criterion that historians use. It is called the criterion of embarrassment. Based on this criterion, any historian would conclude the Satanic Verses event really happened. Plus, you have multiple highly reliable INDEPENDENT early sources for it. Hence, the Satanic Verses seems to fulfil very important criteria of historicity.
firedragon
Veteran Member
He didn't. He narrated to his student. Who wrote it down which got lost. Ibn bakavis work was also lost. What remains is ibn hishams work. In that the so called satanic verses are not there. Coin, I already said the exact same thing.
Read your post again. Your own post.