after five years, i left islam. here's one huge contradiction in the qur`an

[anonymous9887]

Oh, the serpent evolved naturally.

Satan used the serpent as a puppet so to speak. Satan exercised his free will to oppose god.

 

[anonymous9887]

No point. Because you will reply "Its not what others say". If you want to hear what others say ask from others.

I was also going to ask you, can you name any scholars that support your views?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

oh man that is a research you will have to do on your own, because it is extensive research. but when you examine closely the eye witnesses and the secular evidence from other sources than the bible it really tarts to put things into a more credible story that really happened.

A book to read Jesus on trial. I will try to answer later, I don't have my own personal notes as well, oh and there is one messianic prophesy that provides the time in which Jesus would come.

I look forward to your response.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Yes, so go ahead, I know where you are going with this.

So God gave us (and Satan?) free will knowing full well what we (and Satan?) would do with that free will? And God allowed all things to happen the way they have happened despite knowing that immense suffering would be caused thereby?

 

[anonymous9887]

So God gave us (and Satan?) free will knowing full well what we (and Satan?) would do with that free will? And God allowed all things to happen the way they have happened despite knowing that immense suffering would be caused thereby?

Do you enjoy free will?

 

[anonymous9887]

So God gave us (and Satan?) free will knowing full well what we (and Satan?) would do with that free will? And God allowed all things to happen the way they have happened despite knowing that immense suffering would be caused thereby?

Even if god did know, his intention was there to do the right thing but people chose to do wrong, not the other way around.

 

[anonymous9887]

So God gave us (and Satan?) free will knowing full well what we (and Satan?) would do with that free will? And God allowed all things to happen the way they have happened despite knowing that immense suffering would be caused thereby?

Let me put it this way.
I believe God had full control of his foreknowledge, like he can select when he wants to exercise it.

1. I am comfortable knowing that God created everyone and everything good.
2. I am comfortable with the fact that we have free will.
3. If god knew, it is still not on god. If god had created everyone good with no free will there would be no free will.

 

[anonymous9887]

So God gave us (and Satan?) free will knowing full well what we (and Satan?) would do with that free will? And God allowed all things to happen the way they have happened despite knowing that immense suffering would be caused thereby?

Free will what is it?
1. The ability to make any choices desirable to one's self.
2. If god would have created beings that don't have the option to do evil there is no free will.
3. God wanted them to choose him and reject rebellion but they did not.
4. God created everything good but people rejected his perfect gift.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Do you enjoy free will?

Some of the time!

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Even if god did know, his intention was there to do the right thing but people chose to do wrong, not the other way around.

See, you're saying you have a fundamental problem with the Muslim notion of a God Who created/is responsible for creating cripples (on the grounds that this paints a picture of a cruel God), but are fine with the notion of a God who gave Satan and us free will knowing full well that we would cause immense suffering thereby (which seems to paint a picture of a similarly cruel God).

 

[anonymous9887]

Some of the time!

Because we make bad choices.
But Adam had a direct relationship with god, all he had to do is "choose" to inquire of god for direction. We don't have that communication any more.

 

[anonymous9887]

See, you're saying you have a fundamental problem with the Muslim notion of a God Who created/is responsible for creating cripples (on the grounds that this paints a picture of a cruel God), but are fine with the notion of a God who gave Satan and us free will knowing full well that we would cause immense suffering thereby (which seems to paint a picture of a similarly cruel God).

They are not the same ideas.
1. Allah created from the beginning a plan to test us with this life and he chose these things for us. It is like Allah assigned us a role with no option, you are tested and that's it.
2. Jehovah god created all things and beings good. He gave them everything good that they could ask for. Adam had an option to do good and prevent all this. As a matter of fact had Adam remained faithful that would have proved Satan's charge a lie, that a man cannot be faithful to god. Free will is such a beautiful thing that God gave us. Imagine that, god allows us to choose to disobey him if we want.

3. - either god created us to test us with evil things from the beginning and he is responsible for it.
- or god created a good life for us in the beginning that mankind rejected and continues rejecting. Yes what a bummer that "people" select to do bad in this world.

4. Here is another theological scenario
- if someone right now hypothetically speaking is sitting down and all of a sudden he stabs his wife and she dies, and she is not a muslim, was that gods will?

- now if he stabbed her and she dies and has a family and 3 kids was that Allah's will or the man's choice?

- what if she is muslim and she dies and her death will cause struggles for her children, was that Allah's will?



Will= how god wants it done, that's what he wants for us.

 

[anonymous9887]

See, you're saying you have a fundamental problem with the Muslim notion of a God Who created/is responsible for creating cripples (on the grounds that this paints a picture of a cruel God), but are fine with the notion of a God who gave Satan and us free will knowing full well that we would cause immense suffering thereby (which seems to paint a picture of a similarly cruel God).

There is one fact that both you and I agree on. EVIL EXISTS
1. Either that was gods initial plan to test us with evil.
2. He created all things good for us to benefit and his plan was a paradise, but we chose the other direction. Even if he knew our choice, we made the choice not him.
2nd we also have the answer to why he allows it.

 

[firedragon]

Satan used the serpent as a puppet so to speak. Satan exercised his free will to oppose god.

Okay. But who created the serpent? If everything was created good, and to live forever until the humans sinned (As usually is. I just had some nice fried dead meat at 2:12 AM), the serpent was bad? And what is the proof that satan used the serpent?

 

[firedragon]

I was also going to ask you, can you name any scholars that support your views?

No point. My beliefs and your beliefs are different. I take a completely different approach. A linguists approach. And I don't have a habit of quoting scholars, I prefer to use my own brain and other to use their own brains well. Just like the Quranic text expects us to.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

- if someone right now hypothetically speaking is sitting down and all of a sudden he stabs his wife and she dies, and she is not a muslim, was that gods will?

- now if he stabbed her and she dies and has a family and 3 kids was that Allah's will or the man's choice?

- what if she is muslim and she dies and her death will cause struggles for her children, was that Allah's will?

These are valid point for student of Theodicy.

But I wonder why you specifically mentioned "Muslim" wife? Sorry, I may have missed something.

 

[anonymous9887]

Okay. But who created the serpent? If everything was created good, and to live forever until the humans sinned (As usually is. I just had some nice fried dead meat at 2:12 AM), the serpent was bad? And what is the proof that satan used the serpent?

Well the things that most people have a hard time understanding is free will.
1. Satan was created by god to do good and he was good, but he used his free will to disobey.
2. Well angels obviously can take up human bodies, all over the old testament they took up human bodies or they materialized.
3. I can't prove to you he possessed the serpent, but I can prove that angels can materialize.

 

[anonymous9887]

These are valid point for student of Theodicy.

But I wonder why you specifically mentioned "Muslim" wife? Sorry, I may have missed something.

Let's be honest, who ever has the true religion, who ever it may be, is not immune to the disasters and trouble in this life bad things happen to good muslims and bad muslims. Good things happen to bad christians and bad things happen to good christians. No religion is immune. We all suffer. We as humans have a habit of saying this or that happened because God was involved, the truth is people try to say my dad died because of this or that, when we don't know the reason.

 

[anonymous9887]

These are valid point for student of Theodicy.

But I wonder why you specifically mentioned "Muslim" wife? Sorry, I may have missed something.

I also try to take a look at the truth.

For example if I say my religion is the true religion because we have many followers and the growth, then I guess catholics are a greater truth and religion. Is god blessing their efforts?

 

[firedragon]

Let's be honest, who ever has the true religion, who ever it may be, is not immune to the disasters and trouble in this life bad things happen to good muslims and bad muslims. Good things happen to bad christians and bad things happen to good christians. No religion is immune. We all suffer. We as humans have a habit of saying this or that happened because God was involved, the truth is people try to say my dad died because of this or that, when we don't know the reason.

Understood.