after five years, i left islam. here's one huge contradiction in the qur`an

[anonymous9887]

None in the OT?

again there is a difference between a judgment and evil. No punishment occurs now until Judgment day.

 

[firedragon]

Job the 1st and 2nd chapters

Where is Job from?

 

[firedragon]

If you are dead spiritually what does that mean for you if you die in that condition?

Until you repent you remain dead. But you can repent and live again.

Its not about what it means to me mate, its about what the bible means.

 

[firedragon]

again there is a difference between a judgment and evil. No punishment occurs now until Judgment day.

Is that why 6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust? 50 million dead in the world wars?

So what you are saying is that there is no punishment after Jesus, and suffering is because of the existence of the devil or/and because we have caused it due to our deviation.

But then, the sinners will be punished after the second coming of Jesus. Which means the dead will stay dead or maybe alive as spirits till that day.

This concept goes against Ecclesiastes.

 

[anonymous9887]

Is that why 6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust? 50 million dead in the world wars?

So what you are saying is that there is no punishment after Jesus, and suffering is because of the existence of the devil or/and because we have caused it due to our deviation.

But then, the sinners will be punished after the second coming of Jesus. Which means the dead will stay dead or maybe alive as spirits till that day.

This concept goes against Ecclesiastes.

Well if your trying to discuss judgement I have done the study, it all depend on if they had a chance to know the truth , there are many variables involved.

The wars are something that we making and Satan and his demons are responsible for. We are going into a whole different direction if you are trying to discuss judgement.

But this a good scripture
Acts 24:15

But in reality we do not know who will make it and who wont.

 

[anonymous9887]

Until you repent you remain dead. But you can repent and live again.

Its not about what it means to me mate, its about what the bible means.

Being spiritually dead or alive is up to one's self, that no one can take from you. So again this condition means life or death for someone. But it tells us this because we have a chance to live again.

 

[anonymous9887]

Where is Job from?

The person Job or what do you mean?

 

[firedragon]

I was reading the Quran with an open mind, but when I ran into sura 3:6 I stopped till someone could properly explain it.

Chapter 3 verse 6
He is the One who pictures/forms you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no deity/God except He, the Noble, the Wise.

You have to understand the usage of classical Arabic in the Quran for this. I dont expect you to accept it.

"Form" in the verse is "Sawwara" which is used in the Quran many times. Its not like creation, its like fashioning something. Check Quran 40:64, 7:11 etc.This is a plural generic statement (Wombs or l arhaami). It is not talking to an individual saying "I created you the way I want to in your mothers womb", this is a generic statement referring to general formation of a human being in wombs.

e.g.

God is the One who made the earth a habitat for you, and the heaven/sky as a roof/structure, and He designed/formed you, and has perfected your design. And He provided you with good provisions. Such is God your Lord. Most Exalted is God, Lord of the worlds.

That is a general statement. Its speaking to you as all of humanity. It does not mean that God individually creates you black, white, male, female, cripple or Salma Hayek (Phew, I used to be in love with her). The same word is used in 59:24 (Musawiru) to describe God. The fashioner.

Read in the form of Quranic context you will understand the verse to say that you are created in wombs. There is only one deity, you are not deity, your children, your wealth, your ego, your desire, none of these things are Ilah, Divine or Deity. Thus, however you are born, what ever shape or form, dont get disheartened or puffed up with pride because there is only one deity, the deity.

In the briefest nutshell.

 

[firedragon]

The person Job or what do you mean?

Lol. Of course the person Job.

 

[anonymous9887]

Chapter 3 verse 6
He is the One who pictures/forms you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no deity/God except He, the Noble, the Wise.

You have to understand the usage of classical Arabic in the Quran for this. I dont expect you to accept it.

"Form" in the verse is "Sawwara" which is used in the Quran many times. Its not like creation, its like fashioning something. Check Quran 40:64, 7:11 etc.This is a plural generic statement (Wombs or l arhaami). It is not talking to an individual saying "I created you the way I want to in your mothers womb", this is a generic statement referring to general formation of a human being in wombs.

e.g.

God is the One who made the earth a habitat for you, and the heaven/sky as a roof/structure, and He designed/formed you, and has perfected your design. And He provided you with good provisions. Such is God your Lord. Most Exalted is God, Lord of the worlds.

That is a general statement. Its speaking to you as all of humanity. It does not mean that God individually creates you black, white, male, female, cripple or Salma Hayek (Phew, I used to be in love with her). The same word is used in 59:24 (Musawiru) to describe God. The fashioner.

Read in the form of Quranic context you will understand the verse to say that you are created in wombs. There is only one deity, you are not deity, your children, your wealth, your ego, your desire, none of these things are Ilah, Divine or Deity. Thus, however you are born, what ever shape or form, dont get disheartened or puffed up with pride because there is only one deity, the deity.

In the briefest nutshell.

You are the only muslim I have spoken to that gives that explanation, not even scholars, so I'm not sure.

 

[anonymous9887]

Lol. Of course the person Job.

Land of Uz

 

[firedragon]

You are the only muslim I have spoken to that gives that explanation, not even scholars, so I'm not sure.

Exactly what I said, I dont expect you to accept it.

Think about this. In this same thread, you have rejected ahadith because they are 200 years later. You have rejected various stories because they are written 200 years later. Thats not the real reason, its not that a particular book was written 200 years later, its that it was "Authored" 200 years later.

You reject this when convenient, but you speak of scholars who scrutinise the Quran using concepts built around the same stories written 200 years later and their answer is more acceptable purely because they are the majority, even though they use the same documents you reject when you want to.

Your wish my friend. Your wish.

 

[firedragon]

Land of Uz

Lol. I know mate. Where is Uz? Alright alright. Its a futile discussion. So far there are only speculations but no idea where Uz is.

 

[Sabour]

1. Ok so you would rather have a god that causes woman and children to get raped, cause natural disasters, created us to die, causes children to be borne with defect, causes wars, famine, pestilence, all the results of this life are gods doing.
Or
2. God allows things to happen, but he did not intend this originally for us to suffer and die and these things.

I respectfully say your god is wicked.

So you would cause your children to get molested, get sick and die, cause wars, and expect them to love you?
Tyranny

I answered to that In comment 552. here is the link http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...ion-in-the-qur-an.188049/page-28#post-4793512

If you refuse that answer, that doesn't mean my god is wicked. It does only mean that you fail to see the logic of things.

A person who refuses the Islamic teachings regarding suffering in the way you are demonstrating must not accept the notion that we are still paying the price for the sin that Adam did. After all why would a merciful God punish the whole of humanity for something that Adam did.


The way I see it, you are having double standards and I say that respectfully.

 

[Sabour]

I never understood why some Muslims have to keep saying "peace be upon him" as if Muhammad or God is actively concerned with some text on the internet. ALso instead of Gabriel just writing it himself, he decided to have a peasant write it for him in a cave where nobody could see him for God knows how long. UNLIKELY.

One tends to follow the people he talks good about. Why would it bother you? You don't have to write it, or read it if you don't like.

For the rest, it is us who must be seeking God and the way He does things. It is not the other way round.

 

[Sabour]

I never understood why some Muslims have to keep saying "peace be upon him" as if Muhammad or God is actively concerned with some text on the internet.

33:56 Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [ Allah to grant him] peace

 

[anonymous9887]

I answered to that In comment 552. here is the link http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...ion-in-the-qur-an.188049/page-28#post-4793512

If you refuse that answer, that doesn't mean my god is wicked. It does only mean that you fail to see the logic of things.

A person who refuses the Islamic teachings regarding suffering in the way you are demonstrating must not accept the notion that we are still paying the price for the sin that Adam did. After all why would a merciful God punish the whole of humanity for something that Adam did.


The way I see it, you are having double standards and I say that respectfully.

Actually we are not punished for what Adam did, god simply allowed for his offspring to remain.

Again though this is simple genetics, why am I prone to diabetes, or HIV, or any other disease that can be inherited, why are children born high on heroine because of what the parents did?

That is a question you have to answer.

Because according to your logic Allah wanted the little boy to be born high or with aids. Simple genetics which god created for good, so that Adam could pass his perfect Genetics on to the next.

 

[Sabour]

Actually we are not punished for what Adam did, god simply allowed for his offspring to remain.

Again though this is simple genetics, why am I prone to diabetes, or HIV, or any other disease that can be inherited, why are children born high on heroine because of what the parents did?

That is a question you have to answer.

Because according to your logic Allah wanted the little boy to be born high or with aids. Simple genetics which god created for good, so that Adam could pass his perfect Genetics on to the next.

I specifically told you in my previous replies that there is a cause and effect relation in the world and somethings lead to the other, this would apply to the cases of diseases.

However, and at the same time, all of these are under God's will also meaning that He can make them fade away if He wants, or keep them if He wants.

According to you logic, it is either that God has no say on what happens, or that you are only dodging the question away. Dodging the question away would be as saying God has no authority on the bad things and suffering that happens, it is satan who is causing the suffering. And it just happened that God gave him the power to do bad stuff.

The main differences between my belief and you belief is

1- I believe God has authority on everything and He can make anything happen whatsoever, and He can prevent anything from happening too.
2- No one has authority on how things go except Him.
3- Islam have provided me with the reasons for why bad things happen to us. However, at the end, all these stuff tend to be good stuff because they draw us nearer to Allah and we are rewarded with patience.


Let us leave that here because I think we repeated ourselves enough already.

 

[anonymous9887]

I specifically told you in my previous replies that there is a cause and effect relation in the world and somethings lead to the other, this would apply to the cases of diseases.

However, and at the same time, all of these are under God's will also meaning that He can make them fade away if He wants, or keep them if He wants.

According to you logic, it is either that God has no say on what happens, or that you are only dodging the question away. Dodging the question away would be as saying God has no authority on the bad things and suffering that happens, it is satan who is causing the suffering. And it just happened that God gave him the power to do bad stuff.

The main differences between my belief and you belief is

1- I believe God has authority on everything and He can make anything happen whatsoever, and He can prevent anything from happening too.
2- No one has authority on how things go except Him.
3- Islam have provided me with the reasons for why bad things happen to us. However, at the end, all these stuff tend to be good stuff because they draw us nearer to Allah and we are rewarded with patience.


Let us leave that here because I think we repeated ourselves enough already.

1. I say god has power or ability over all things, but is he choosing to exercise it completely is another story.
2. That's funny I thought we have free will. God allows us to make our own choices, and god can keep us from the consequences of our actions, but our error is our error.
3. That sucks that if you have all of a sudden a child born with a defect you can truly say Allah wanted this for me. Well ok man. Free will.

 

[Sabour]

1. I say god has power or ability over all things, but is he choosing to exercise it completely is another story.
2. That's funny I thought we have free will. God allows us to make our own choices, and god can keep us from the consequences of our actions, but our error is our error.
3. That sucks that if you have all of a sudden a child born with a defect you can truly say Allah wanted this for me. Well ok man. Free will.

I appreciate if you could use the quote feature instead of the reply. Because when you are pointing 1 2 3, I am not understanding to what parts are you answering.

For free will, I believe in that we have a freedom of choice according to our ability, that is given by God. We have a freedom of choice in a limited context. People call this free will.

We don't say Allah wanted this for me. We say "All praise to Allah whatever the condition was"