Allah, the only Creator.

[Onkara]

Hi Reason_236
Thanks for replying! I agree with your description of tracing back our existence to the basics. I also like the possibilities which come from your idea that "a woman doesn’t create a child when she gives birth to it." It places even human actions into a bigger, more wholistic understanding of our situation.


You are right, my approach is slightly different from your own, but please take a moment to consider why I arrive at this slightly different conclusion.

I am not able to accept that something can come from nothing. If something can come from nothing, then question then becomes "Who created Allah from that nothing?" It results in infinite regress e.g. Who created Allah, and then who created That which created Allah, and so on. We already know this is wrong as Allah was not begotten.

Nothing can only exist by negation, in other words, to arrive at nothing we have to take away existence. However negating existence does not mean that Nothingness can exist independently of that which was negated. In fact nothingness can ONLY exist in relation to that which is negated, like an empty box, we know it as empty because we have physically or mentally subtracted what was in the box. This is why Allah cannot be begotten, He was never born and will never die. He is both the imagined "nothing" from which all existence sprang AND all that exists in His "nothingness".

I would be happy to hear thoughts arising from this, if any.
Onkarah.

 

[REASON_236]

Hello again Onkarah,

not understanding how something came from nothing is absolutely normal. in fact, if u would've said that u can understand how something can come from nothing, i wouldn't have believed u. but our inability to understand something doesnt mean its not true and it certainly doesnt mean its true either. so we have to keep an open mind. i made an example earlier that if someone would sit with an ape since its birth and try to teach it calculus, will the ape eventually learn? absolutely not. it is not in the nature of apes to understand higher maths. only humans have this intellectual ability. we can go a step further and assume that there is a higher intellectual ability that humans do not possess . therefore it is right to assume that any nature or process that requires the highest intellectual ability could not be understood by humans. its only logical after all. humans, throughout their existence, lived in a world bound by space and time. they have the ability to understand (mentally grasp) anything that is bound by space and time because it is of their nature. but it is impossible for them to 'jump' out of their nature and physically live in a world that is not bound to space and time. but they can experience phenomena that r beyond their nature. for example, love is beyond our physical world(it doesnt physically exist or occupy space). but no one can deny its existence for it is experienced.

now to say that the Creator is neither begotten nor begets implies that He is eternal. He created time and bounded the universe(us) by it. and because we cant jump out of time, we cant understand how He created time or the universe.

if u think that because something cant come from nothing, and before the universe, there was nothing but god, that means that god created the universe from himself? then i can see what u mean, but i cant say i agree nor disagree, because i cant understand this process, neither something from nothing, nor the nature of the Creator because they r all above my nature and i (like the ape), whatever i do, can never grasp this nature because its not within mine.

best reguards.

 

[Andal]

if lets say god took the form of a human, do u believe that the whole of god would be 'contained' in that physical body? im assuming that not, since god is eternal and infinite, therefore the physical body, or the drawing is a symbol of god and not god as a whole(im just assuming here, and plz correct me if im wrong). and when u praise or worship the symbol, your aim is the eternal and infinite god that can't possibly be contained in a physical body. in islam, the name of god (as in the drawing), refers to god. we cherish and honor the drawing itself. but in prayer or worship, we dont think of the drawing, but we submit to the eternal being. i think there may be some similarities(but not in the part of god taking the form of a human).

Namaste Reason,

This is an interesting dilemma you bring up. If I believe that God is infinite and all powerful then to say that he can't be contained in a human form would place a limit on him. But there is also the problem of how is the infinite contained in a form. When God takes human form as an avatar it is not his entire essence in that form. He doesn't completely leave his position in the cosmos. Just a small part of him essence takes birth. Many Vaishnavas (Vishnu worshippers) also believe that God does have a form. He is not some formless thing or the culmination of consciousness, or something. He has a personal and impersonal form. In his personal form he is beautiful and contains all great qualities.

In terms of worshiping images, we know that the entirety of God is not contained there in. The image or symbol acts as an open conduit to God. We like to worship God in very physical ways like serving, dancing, or sing for him. Since we can't perceive God, the image gives us a focal point to engage in these activities. The image opens a connection to God where we can serve him and he gives blessings (of course he can do this without images but it's us humans who need them)

Interesting thread and some good discussion going on here

 

[Onkara]

Hi Reason_236

I would like to add a point on “nothing”, this problem of nothingness is philosophical, as we cannot experience nothing as we are bound by time and form. But we must be philosophically careful as to state that everything came from nothing comes close to belittling Allah. To say that nothing proceeded Allah implies that Allah is not as great as nothing in which he was begotten. The answer is to say that there exists only Allah and His creation which we can call the Universe. This leaves the dilemma of how that which Allah created stands in relation to Allah, we touch on this below…

if u think that because something cant come from nothing, and before the universe, there was nothing but god, that means that god created the universe from himself? then i can see what u mean, but i cant say i agree nor disagree, because i cant understand this process, neither something from nothing, nor the nature of the Creator because they r all above my nature and i (like the ape), whatever i do, can never grasp this nature because its not within mine.
.

Yes, from Allah came the universe. He willed it. Personally I have no problem with this philosophically because it means that there is foundation. Like any good bricklayer I can build a castle on a strong foundation and live contented.

So we have reached a limit of human understand as you accurately describe above. We are not able to step out of time or form to be able to understand the larger picture. To state it more strongly: we are not ever separate and cannot separate ourselves. We are powerless to be separate from the universe and consequently on acknowledging the universe as Allah I am cannot separate my self from Him. Creation and creator are linked, in a never begotten cosmic dance.

So what next? Are we really so limited by the Creator’s creation of time and form that we must live a life in denial? It appears not, from our posts I can see that we don’t appear to be struggling with denial or belief. So despite our conceptual and sensual limitations what makes us so certain of Allah?

Is there a door into knowing Truth? A loop whole, so to speak, which allows some people to come closer to Allah, and to have our hearts opened? Isn’t the fact that we have arrived at the conclusion a miracle enough? There is something in His creation which leads us (our minds) to Him. Would you agree?

Best wishes, Onkarah.

 

[theosopher]

Hi Reason_236

I would like to add a point on “nothing”, this problem of nothingness is philosophical, as we cannot experience nothing as we are bound by time and form. But we must be philosophically careful as to state that everything came from nothing comes close to belittling Allah. To say that nothing proceeded Allah implies that Allah is not as great as nothing in which he was begotten. The answer is to say that there exists only Allah and His creation which we can call the Universe. This leaves the dilemma of how that which Allah created stands in relation to Allah, we touch on this below…




Yes, from Allah came the universe. He willed it. Personally I have no problem with this philosophically because it means that there is foundation. Like any good bricklayer I can build a castle on a strong foundation and live contented.

So we have reached a limit of human understand as you accurately describe above. We are not able to step out of time or form to be able to understand the larger picture. To state it more strongly: we are not ever separate and cannot separate ourselves. We are powerless to be separate from the universe and consequently on acknowledging the universe as Allah I am cannot separate my self from Him. Creation and creator are linked, in a never begotten cosmic dance.

So what next? Are we really so limited by the Creator’s creation of time and form that we must live a life in denial? It appears not, from our posts I can see that we don’t appear to be struggling with denial or belief. So despite our conceptual and sensual limitations what makes us so certain of Allah?

Is there a door into knowing Truth? A loop whole, so to speak, which allows some people to come closer to Allah, and to have our hearts opened? Isn’t the fact that we have arrived at the conclusion a miracle enough? There is something in His creation which leads us (our minds) to Him. Would you agree?

I would disagree with all of this. I only know god, because he recreated me.

I was begotten of god.

You can not know anything with certainty without experience.

How can you believe these things that you have simply made up from lack of experience?

 

[Onkara]

I would disagree with all of this. I only know god, because he recreated me.

I was begotten of god.

You can not know anything with certainty without experience.

How can you believe these things that you have simply made up from lack of experience?

I am pleased you disagree Although I am uncertain on what you disagree with?
I agree that from God I was begotten. I agree that I only know God because I AM here to experience this. It is through my being that I am able to experience. Experience is a reflection of my being. Is it different for you?

Onkarah.

EDIT:
You see yourself as seperate from the Creator i.e. creation and creator are seperate in your experience, is that why you disagree?

 

[theosopher]

I am pleased you disagree Although I am uncertain on what you disagree with?
I agree that from God I was begotten. I agree that I only know God because I AM here to experience this. It is through my being that I am able to experience. Experience is a reflection of my being. Is it different for you?

You ask:

"Is there a door into knowing Truth?"

Yes, and I have been through that door. The spirit of god caught me up from my existence on earth, and sent me back 3 hours later, about twenty-five feet from where I was taken up.

This is the doorway, and it is open to everyone. It is known by the name Joshua which migh be better spelled Yashua in english.

But, don't get hung up on names. You do not really know the name without the experience.

 

[REASON_236]

Hi Reason_236

I would like to add a point on “nothing”, this problem of nothingness is philosophical, as we cannot experience nothing as we are bound by time and form. But we must be philosophically careful as to state that everything came from nothing comes close to belittling Allah. To say that nothing proceeded Allah implies that Allah is not as great as nothing in which he was begotten. The answer is to say that there exists only Allah and His creation which we can call the Universe. This leaves the dilemma of how that which Allah created stands in relation to Allah, we touch on this below…




Yes, from Allah came the universe. He willed it. Personally I have no problem with this philosophically because it means that there is foundation. Like any good bricklayer I can build a castle on a strong foundation and live contented.

So we have reached a limit of human understand as you accurately describe above. We are not able to step out of time or form to be able to understand the larger picture. To state it more strongly: we are not ever separate and cannot separate ourselves. We are powerless to be separate from the universe and consequently on acknowledging the universe as Allah I am cannot separate my self from Him. Creation and creator are linked, in a never begotten cosmic dance.

So what next? Are we really so limited by the Creator’s creation of time and form that we must live a life in denial? It appears not, from our posts I can see that we don’t appear to be struggling with denial or belief. So despite our conceptual and sensual limitations what makes us so certain of Allah?

Is there a door into knowing Truth? A loop whole, so to speak, which allows some people to come closer to Allah, and to have our hearts opened? Isn’t the fact that we have arrived at the conclusion a miracle enough? There is something in His creation which leads us (our minds) to Him. Would you agree?

Best wishes, Onkarah.

i totally agree. God didnt create the universe, made no way for us to reach Him, and in the end expected us to know He exists and know our purpose. therefore, He had to create a way for us to know Him, and to know why we're here. there are 2 possible ways. 1: He gives us the ability to 'jump' out of our nature and come closer to Him. but we can only come so close, for us to fully understand or realize him, we would have to become of His nature(gods), which is impossible. 2: (Islam's view) we were never meant to understand Him nor become of His nature. so for us to know what we need to know, He gives us the message in our nature which is possible for us to understand. the message says that there is a creator, that we can never perceive due to our nature, He is the God of everything created, The Good, The Merciful, The Beautiful, The Compassionate, etc. and therefore we should accept Him as the dominant being and be in submission to him. here submission is not the opposite of rebellion(which is impossible). but the willful acceptance of our nature and His. This single message(according to islam) was sent in stages through prophets(people who God made sinless and commit no error) that God revealed to them what they should do and preach, those prophets delivered the message to humanity. and prophet Muhammad being the bearer of the final part of this message(The seal of Prophets), God preserved his revelation(which sums all the ones before his) throughout the ages until the day of judgement where every human will be asked if he fulfilled his purpose in creation.

this is the Islamic point of view. im not saying that there is no other possible explanation. but i have never seen one.

 

[theosopher]

Some others have had simmilar experiences, see the videos at this link:

Moved by god

Go with god,

Vincent

 

[Onkara]

i totally agree. God didnt create the universe, made no way for us to reach Him, and in the end expected us to know He exists and know our purpose. therefore, He had to create a way for us to know Him, and to know why we're here. there are 2 possible ways. 1: He gives us the ability to 'jump' out of our nature and come closer to Him. but we can only come so close, for us to fully understand or realize him, we would have to become of His nature(gods), which is impossible. 2: (Islam's view) we were never meant to understand Him nor become of His nature. so for us to know what we need to know, He gives us the message in our nature which is possible for us to understand. the message says that there is a creator, that we can never perceive due to our nature, He is the God of everything created, The Good, The Merciful, The Beautiful, The Compassionate, etc. and therefore we should accept Him as the dominant being and be in submission to him. here submission is not the opposite of rebellion(which is impossible). but the willful acceptance of our nature and His. This single message(according to islam) was sent in stages through prophets(people who God made sinless and commit no error) that God revealed to them what they should do and preach, those prophets delivered the message to humanity. and prophet Muhammad being the bearer of the final part of this message(The seal of Prophets), God preserved his revelation(which sums all the ones before his) throughout the ages until the day of judgement where every human will be asked if he fulfilled his purpose in creation.

this is the Islamic point of view. im not saying that there is no other possible explanation. but i have never seen one.

Yes, my understanding of this is that the phrophets are holding the door open and showing us how to arrive i.e. by prayer and practice. It is up to us to walk through, and this is where "free will" comes into it.

Free will is the belief that there are still choices and decisions that I must make. The final decision by free will is the complete and utter realisation that; "He is the God of everything created, The Good, The Merciful, The Beautiful, The Compassionate, etc. and therefore we should accept Him as the dominant being and be in submission to him. " (your good description)

It is free will which struggles with that submission. It feels that it has something to loose.

Even after our heart is opened, in my experience there still remains the limits (as we have discussed above) but the limits become known where as before the limitation was actually causing the struggle. The limitation is sublated by the knowing of it, and instead of a struggle the radiance of God's love saturates my being.

Haha, I know it sounds like paradox and riddles but I am up agaist His limits to describe this :thud:

 

[REASON_236]

.

In terms of worshiping images, we know that the entirety of God is not contained there in. The image or symbol acts as an open conduit to God. We like to worship God in very physical ways like serving, dancing, or sing for him. Since we can't perceive God, the image gives us a focal point to engage in these activities. The image opens a connection to God where we can serve him and he gives blessings (of course he can do this without images but it's us humans who need them)

i agree that it is us humans who need this gateway. but i must point out 2 differences.in islam, the purpose of the gateway is to receive a message, experiencing god is done through prayers worship that the message brought to us. god wouldn't be present inside a physical being(even though partially), because of the fact that he exists everywhere. therefore, saying that he is present in that object may imply that he is not present outside it . but because of the fact that he is present everywhere, no physical object can be referred to as Him.

 

[Onkara]

Some others have had simmilar experiences, see the videos at this link:

Moved by god

Go with god,

Vincent

Hi Vincent
Well that is incredible, as the man filmed meeting himself in the future on his mobile! I will look under my sink I find your experience of being moved for 25 feet over 3 hours a little unsettling. No doubt you will encouter much scoffing and rebuke. Have you thought about opening a post to share this specficailly with the RF community, perhaps you are not alone. It raises many questions and I don't wish to derail this thread with them; I wanted to acknowledge your post and add that I must reamin on topic i.e. creator and creation, here.

Kind regards
Onkarah.

 

[REASON_236]

God 'ordered' but didnt force us to submit to Him. free will is the freedom ar ability to choose to accept submission or reject it. angels dont have this ability, therefore they r obedient in nature. if a person freely accepted to submit , he will still be free to reject it again anytime. and while he accepts submission, he is still free, for the meaning of submission is the acceptance of Allah's as the most divine being.

 

[REASON_236]

 

[Onkara]

God 'ordered' but didnt force us to submit to Him. free will is the freedom ar ability to choose to accept submission or reject it. angels dont have this ability, therefore they r obedient in nature. if a person freely accepted to submit , he will still be free to reject it again anytime. and while he accepts submission, he is still free, for the meaning of submission is the acceptance of Allah's as the most divine being.

Hi
That gives me a new perspective Perhaps you can clear this up by defining Allah's will. My impression is that His will is absolute but this is only known when we come to accept it. On acceptance of it, we are submerged in it. In other words, once you submit totally there is no going back. The Quran talks about people changing their mind but personally I would not say these persons have reached the state of complete submission, but rather they are on the path and believe in free will.

Another way of approaching this in respect to creator and creation is as follows: Mr Smith believes he is seperate to God. He knows this as he knows he has free will. However Mr Jones knows he is united with God through his full submission, he no longer has free will as he acts in submission of Allah's will and knows no will beside Allah's. Both men still share the same world, they are still God's creation, but one is seperate from the creator and the other not, the different is their relationship with Allah, and specfically Free will verus divine will. Isn't this the point of the Islam (submission)?

 

[Onkara]

once we accept that there is a creator, we know that we r powerless towards this creator, therefore we will be in submission to him. no one can claim that he believes in the existence of a God that created him/her and in the same time, deny the fact that he is powerless compared to him.

Exactly. Our posts overlapped but I think we are saying the same thing. My point is that once you reach the state you describe above there is no turning back. Thoughts on that?

 

[Baydwin]

Islam claims that Allah is the creator of the universe. and as a monotheistic religion, Islam claims that there is one creator. it also claims that he is not begotten and does not beget. kindly, express your ideas of what a creator(s) might be. and if a creator exists in the first place.

For me there is one god. A coalescence of Chaos, potentiality possessing of will and mind, Chaos made spirit. She needed will to conceive, to become pregnant with form. To see the world is to see the developing foetal deity nestled within the womb of god, the universe a single expression of Chaos given form.
She's a single deity within a consanguine triad of divinities.

 

[biomystic]

Response: The qur'an tells us who Allah is. He is the originator and creator of the heavens and the
earth, as well as the entire universe and life itself and all that's within it. He as no beginning or end and has created humanity for the purpose to know Him and worship Him alone.

That tells me nothing about the identity of God. If you don't know how God came into existence, you just do not know what God is. Those who learn the spiritual truth of the Son of Man tradition held within the Gospel of Humanity will learn what God is. All other religious paths will only give you superficial names for God or platitudes such as "He is the originator and creator of the heavens and earth." which is a truism without substantial meaning. It's like saying the ocean is deep and thinking this means you know all about oceans.

 

[REASON_236]

Another way of approaching this in respect to creator and creation is as follows: Mr Smith believes he is seperate to God. He knows this as he knows he has free will. However Mr Jones knows he is united with God through his full submission, he no longer has free will as he acts in submission of Allah's will and knows no will beside Allah's. Both men still share the same world, they are still God's creation, but one is seperate from the creator and the other not, the different is their relationship with Allah, and specfically Free will verus divine will. Isn't this the point of the Islam (submission)?

im afraid u misunderstood. there is no free will against divine will. divine will is final. mr. jones can walk out anytime of his submission. although he realizes divine will and accepted submission, if he chooses to leave, divine will will not act against it. it is only so for prophets and angels.

 

[biomystic]

God 'ordered' but didnt force us to submit to Him. free will is the freedom ar ability to choose to accept submission or reject it. angels dont have this ability, therefore they r obedient in nature. if a person freely accepted to submit , he will still be free to reject it again anytime. and while he accepts submission, he is still free, for the meaning of submission is the acceptance of Allah's as the most divine being.

There is no such thing as "free will". It is an illusion because we can't see the future but any omniscient God would be able to do so and would know beforehand what we are going to do. If your god doesn't know the future, that is not God but a human construct masquerading as God.

As for submission to God, it is not done in order to appease some extremely powerful Alien Entity but done as a logical decision to help humanity evolve into humane beings from which the Great Spirit we call "God" will eventually arise in our time frames although this has already happened as Creation sits forever unfolding as the vehicle in which humanity evolved into God. Our lives have been scripted from the beginning but because we can't see the future, we think we are making decisions about our lives that have already been made and we are playing them out.

Here is that spiritual wisdom found buried in Psalms and not recognized by Jews, traditional Christians or Muslims:

"Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them."