Allah, the only Creator.

[Onkara]

im afraid u misunderstood. there is no free will against divine will. divine will is final. mr. jones can walk out anytime of his submission. although he realizes divine will and accepted submission, if he chooses to leave, divine will will not act against it. it is only so for prophets and angels.

Thanks for clarifying. I am not proposing the free will is against divine will, Allah created man with free will. (I assume you choose to use "against" to get the point across but want to clarify). My point is that submission and free will contradict each other. How could Mr Jones claim to be in submission and yet act momentarilly from free will. It is like bording a train and expecting to get off when you feel like it, once aboard one is at the will of the train driver. Free will took the step on to the train, at which point Divine will took over.

Of course if we are talking about simple beliefs then one can change the mind. But the point here is more profound. If once God is known you suddenly change your mind It implies you then need to make an effort to re-known Him. It is a contradiction which is born from uncertainty in the first place. In other words the man who submitted but then turned away, never really submitted in the first place or there would have no longer been a place for doubt in total submission.

Just bouncing an idea

 

[REASON_236]

Thanks for clarifying. I am not proposing the free will is against divine will, Allah created man with free will. (I assume you choose to use "against" to get the point across but want to clarify). My point is that submission and free will contradict each other. How could Mr Jones claim to be in submission and yet act momentarilly from free will. It is like bording a train and expecting to get off when you feel like it, once aboard one is at the will of the train driver.

Of course if we are talking about simple beliefs then one can change the mind. But the point here is more profound. If once God is known you suddenly change your mind It implies you then need to make an effort to re-known Him. It is a contradiction which is born from uncertainty in the first place. In other words the man who submitted but then turned away, never really submitted in the first place or there would have no longer been a place for doubt in total submission.

Just bouncing an idea

i can believe in god as the highest divine being, and follow his orders.(submission)

i can believe that god is the highest divine being and still deny worshiping him.(refusal).

i guess that my last definition was inaccurate u're right.:sorry1:

 

[REASON_236]

There is no such thing as "free will". It is an illusion because we can't see the future but any omniscient God would be able to do so and would know beforehand what we are going to do. If your god doesn't know the future, that is not God but a human construct masquerading as God.

if there is no free will then no human being shud be punished for sins. for God made him do it.

if i have a friend that ive known since childhood. and i know the he doesn't drink alcohol. if he was to pass by a bar, i would know that he will not enter. but if he did then apparently i didn't know him that well. but if i knew him even more i would be more certain and my credibility will be higher because i know him more. and if i was the one who created him them i would know how every bit of his body and mind functions. and i would be 100% sure about my statement. because God created us, he can never be wrong on what we will choose. but this would make us ask that if god knew what our decisions would be why then not place everyone in his place in heaven and hell. the answer is: to prove to us that those r the decisions we took. if a teacher knows who will fail and who will pass, he would still have to give the exam to prove to the students that he wasn't unfair to them. so that in the end no one will say 'I would have passed'

 

[Fatihah]

That tells me nothing about the identity of God. If you don't know how God came into existence, you just do not know what God is. Those who learn the spiritual truth of the Son of Man tradition held within the Gospel of Humanity will learn what God is. All other religious paths will only give you superficial names for God or platitudes such as "He is the originator and creator of the heavens and earth." which is a truism without substantial meaning. It's like saying the ocean is deep and thinking this means you know all about oceans.

Response: To the contrary, it does.
For there is only one originator of the universe and life itself, and that is Allah. Since such a definition can only be attributed and identify one being, than that is His identity.

 

[biomystic]

Response: To the contrary, it does.
For there is only one originator of the universe and life itself, and that is Allah. Since such a definition can only be attributed and identify one being, than that is His identity.

A name is does not constitute knowing identity or what something is. I can say that cubical object someone says they once saw is a "box" but that tells me nothing about it other than a name. Since you credit God for having all sorts of names the problem only increases as to what is this thing with four sides, length, height, and depth? A name doesn't discover what what that thing is or how it came to be or what it's purpose is, it's just a name.

 

[REASON_236]

For me there is one god. A coalescence of Chaos, potentiality possessing of will and mind, Chaos made spirit. She needed will to conceive, to become pregnant with form. To see the world is to see the developing foetal deity nestled within the womb of god, the universe a single expression of Chaos given form.
She's a single deity within a consanguine triad of divinities.

interesting... i understand that u believe in one God, Chaos, that the universe is part of(pregnant). but im not sure i get the rest. there r many metaphors. would mind explaining it in a simpler, more direct(if possible) way?

 

[Fatihah]

A name is does not constitute knowing identity or what something is. I can say that cubical object someone says they once saw is a "box" but that tells me nothing about it other than a name. Since you credit God for having all sorts of names the problem only increases as to what is this thing with four sides, length, height, and depth? A name doesn't discover what what that thing is or how it came to be or what it's purpose is, it's just a name.

Response: I never claimed that a name constituted identiy. Thus your whole point is without relevance.

 

[biomystic]

Response: I never claimed that a name constituted identiy. Thus your whole point is without relevance.

Fatihah, do you read your own comments? This is what you wrote:

"For there is only one originator of the universe and life itself, and that is Allah. Since such a definition can only be attributed and identify one being, than that is His identity."

Again, saying the name Allah does not show anything but using a name to describe Something that you have no other other information about other than one name among many names.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Reason 236,

Since this is your thread and you area muslim ask you this question:

Just need to know if *allah* is a label as good as
*bhagwan*,
*god*,
*ra*,
*tao*,
* Yahweh*,
*Shangdi*,
*Tengri*,
*Ahura Mazda*,
etc.

Then surely your query can be responded appropriately.

Love & rgds

 

[Madhuri]

i agree that it is us humans who need this gateway. but i must point out 2 differences.in islam, the purpose of the gateway is to receive a message, experiencing god is done through prayers worship that the message brought to us. god wouldn't be present inside a physical being(even though partially), because of the fact that he exists everywhere. therefore, saying that he is present in that object may imply that he is not present outside it . but because of the fact that he is present everywhere, no physical object can be referred to as Him.

There are many ways for the devotee to experience or communicate with God. A picture or deity is one, meditation is another and prayer and so on. I think the point of drawing God in form can be anything from needing a personal or physical object to use as a focus point or simply to express ones idea of God. It doesnt really matter. The point being that as Hindus, we have some idea of what the physical form of God appears to be although we could never concieve of the full extent and glory.

I do not really understand what you mean by saying that having God present in a picture would imply that he is not present outside of the picture. That is probably due to our different concepts of the divine. My belief is that God is everything and I am a non-dualist. He is the biggest of the big and the smallest of the small. He is present as everything and in everything. He can be manifest as or within a picture and also exist everywhere else. God manifests as different energies and has unlimited representations. So perhaps this is God as a picture but when I look at the picture and send my love and devotion to the picture I am communicating to the Whole. I am communicating the Supreme directly, not just a picture. This is my intention and Im pretty sure that God knows it. I am directing my attention to a particular aspect or manifestaiton of God but I am using a picture of how I see God in my limited creative ability to help me do so.

Is this very contrary to Islam? Or is it just a different technique?

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah, do you read your own comments? This is what you wrote:

"For there is only one originator of the universe and life itself, and that is Allah. Since such a definition can only be attributed and identify one being, than that is His identity."

Again, saying the name Allah does not show anything but using a name to describe Something that you have no other other information about other than one name among many names.

Response: Again, I never said that a name constitutes identity, nor does the above say that. You seem to have misunderstood. And we know much about Allah. One is, as stated above, is that He is the originator of the universe and life itself.

 

[Ba'al]

It is contrary to Islam. The quran says God cannot be compared with anything. If you can compare anything at all with God, then he is not God. God has no conceivable form. There is no need to speak to God in front of a picture. That picture is like a statue and is considered idol worship even if you intend to be worshiping God. And no, just because you are looking at a picture that a human painted it does not at all give you any more of an idea of what God's physical form is. Why do you think God even has a physical form? Does absolute perfection have a specific form? That is Islam's point of view and although I am not a muslim I agree, and please forgive my bluntness but I think worshiping a picture or statue is silly. And another thing, not only is everything God's but it is also part of God. So yes, he knows what your intentions are because since you are part of Him, He knows everything you're thinking. So lastly, it only takes a thought to communicate with God.

 

[biomystic]

REASON_236: "if there is no free will then no human being shud be punished for sins. for God made him do it."

Not having free will doesn't negate the fact that we ourselves are sightless of the future and MUST carry on as if we are making our major decisions in life as carefully considered as we can. The point is, ultimately, our whole lives are following a Script that has been programmed from the beginning of time and space. This is why some who experience maya, or the world as illusion, come to see the world as a Play, like Shakespeare said it was, with ourselves merely actors on the world's stage of existence. Having experienced this type of consciousness I can see why God made it so well hidden. It leaves you with Solomon's wisdom, "All is vanity" and if everyone had this perspective the world of humankind would be a far more somber and far less a wonderous place. Ignorance can be truly bliss and I was so very very happy to come back to "normal" consciousness after experiencing my world as maya for three days during my original religious conversion experience. But I never forgot that experience which came to form a foundation of my whole Christian religious belief system. It explained so much of the classical Gnostic negative attitude toward Creation but in the end, one has to reject a fatalistic resignation to life and jump in with all two feet into the Pit where God in Its wisdom and mercy has here and there made life so joyously incredible and filled with wonderful experiences as to make every hurt and pain worth the effort. I thank God we are made blind to the ultimate knowledge that our lives have been scripted from beginning to end. It makes our individual journeys so much more interesting than if someone told us the ending to our individual book of life.

 

[Madhuri]

It is contrary to Islam. The quran says God cannot be compared with anything. If you can compare anything at all with God, then he is not God. God has no conceivable form. There is no need to speak to God in front of a picture. That picture is like a statue and is considered idol worship even if you intend to be worshiping God. And no, just because you are looking at a picture that a human painted it does not at all give you any more of an idea of what God's physical form is. Why do you think God even has a physical form? Does absolute perfection have a specific form? That is Islam's point of view and although I am not a muslim I agree, and please forgive my bluntness but I think worshiping a picture or statue is silly. And another thing, not only is everything God's but it is also part of God. So yes, he knows what your intentions are because since you are part of Him, He knows everything you're thinking. So lastly, it only takes a thought to communicate with God.

Why can nothing be compared to God if God is everything? God is the beauty in nature, God is the love we experience, God is the guide within. He is everything we know and much, much more. There might not be a need to speak to God who is manifest in/as a picture, but perhaps this is useful to the individual who has trouble expressing his/her love/intentions/emotions to the non-physical. Not everyone is at the stage where they are able to see God in everything or fully express themselves emotionally in thought/prayer. For those people is it silly? I don't think so, personally.

Hindus have an idea of God's personal feature because of the scriptures, not because of pictures. The art is derived from scripture, mystical experience/perception and historical accounts (because Vishnu has appeared in form on this earth numerous times).

You asked: Does absolute perfection have a specific form?
Firstly, who knows? Secondly, Hinduism does not reveal a single form. God has unlimited forms. He is everything. The shark is his form, the flower is His form, the temple is His form, the scripture is His form and yes, even the picture is His form. Is there a main form? Perhaps. I come from the line that sees Vishnu as the very essence of Everything and thus the essential manifestaiton. But no, this manifestation is not concievable to the human mind because we have not realised God. We have not realised much of anything yet. So if we can concieve anything at all it is from the small amount we know of from the list I provided and through our love and devotion we explore our God in images and song and prayer and imagination and in our daily lives. Everything is meant to be for God. If I am always thinking of God then as an artist I would love to depict Him the way I see Him, even if it is innaccurate. I don't understand what could possibly be wrong with that as it is an expression of my love and God -is- Love and love is the whole point of existence.

 

[biomystic]

It is not in adherence to religious belief systems that we experience God but in personal experience which must and will vary from individual to individual. This is why for me, Jesus' wisdom about how to tell what is good religious doctrine from bad is so relevant. "By their fruits ye shall know them." It's what people do with their beliefs that counts. Not what they believe. The animist believer in Africa who consistently helps his neighbors in their need is a better person than the monotheist believer who demands everyone conceive and worship God his way. Goodness is God and goodness, thank God, is found being practiced all over the world despite so many people believing in God so many different ways.

As a Christian prophesy bearer, I bear good news that God wants to let all peoples know that they will see the point of Jesus Christ's and the Christian message as Goodness incarnate in our daily lives just as well as using the name Jesus Christ. The name is secondary in importance to the act.

 

[REASON_236]

Friend Reason 236,

Since this is your thread and you area muslim ask you this question:

Just need to know if *allah* is a label as good as
*bhagwan*,
*god*,
*ra*,
*tao*,
* Yahweh*,
*Shangdi*,
*Tengri*,
*Ahura Mazda*,
etc.

Then surely your query can be responded appropriately.

Love & rgds

as a muslim, i believe that the Quran is God's words and the term Allah appeared in the Quran as His name. but if u use another term to refer to God as Islam sees Him then i wouldn't see where is the problem. but the thing is that if i use the term 'Ra' for example, i wouldn't be thinking of God as Islam sees Him. i would be thinking of Him as the Egyptians saw him, The God of Sun.

in the end, its not about which term we use. its about how we 'see' God. according to Islam, Allah is the God that all the prophets worshiped, the Jews and Christians before Mohammed called Him YAHWEH. so the same Allah is also called YAHWEH. it is about how we 'see God and not what we call Him.

 

[REASON_236]

There are many ways for the devotee to experience or communicate with God. A picture or deity is one, meditation is another and prayer and so on. I think the point of drawing God in form can be anything from needing a personal or physical object to use as a focus point or simply to express ones idea of God. It doesnt really matter. The point being that as Hindus, we have some idea of what the physical form of God appears to be although we could never concieve of the full extent and glory.

I do not really understand what you mean by saying that having God present in a picture would imply that he is not present outside of the picture. That is probably due to our different concepts of the divine. My belief is that God is everything and I am a non-dualist. He is the biggest of the big and the smallest of the small. He is present as everything and in everything. He can be manifest as or within a picture and also exist everywhere else. God manifests as different energies and has unlimited representations. So perhaps this is God as a picture but when I look at the picture and send my love and devotion to the picture I am communicating to the Whole. I am communicating the Supreme directly, not just a picture. This is my intention and Im pretty sure that God knows it. I am directing my attention to a particular aspect or manifestaiton of God but I am using a picture of how I see God in my limited creative ability to help me do so.

Is this very contrary to Islam? Or is it just a different technique?

in islam, a picture of the word 'Allah' doesnt represent God but refers to him and we honor the picture but we dont worship it.

i meant that we cant draw something that is everywhere. but if u'r saying that u r drawing 'part' of him, then by worshiping this part, u wouldn't be worshiping the whole Him. but if u mean that u use a beautiful picture to represent a 'sample' of his whole beauty and worship the whole beauty through this sample(since we cant perceive the whole beauty), then wouldn't u think that using something that He drew for us would be a better representation of a 'sample' of his beauty? like beautiful natural views, sunset, the sea, the mountains, the stars, etc.

i can see how the picture or anything beautiful can represent a 'sample' of His beauty since He is beauty itself.but how can the picture represent his might, eternity, knowledge, compassion, etc.

i was wondering, in the rest of the drawings, is it the same person in this drawing or he can be drawn to look differently?

best regards.

 

[Caladan]

allah is the arabic term for god?

just a little technicality, Allah was the name of the head of the pantheon among pagan Arabs before the rise of Islam, this Allah also had daughters and many companions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah#Pre-Islamic_Arabia

 

[Caladan]

Islam claims that Allah is the creator of the universe. and as a monotheistic religion, Islam claims that there is one creator. it also claims that he is not begotten and does not beget. kindly, express your ideas of what a creator(s) might be. and if a creator exists in the first place.

No need for creator. the laws of physics and biological evolution are phenomena independent of a need for a deity.

 

[biomystic]

No need for creator. the laws of physics and biological evolution are phenomena independent of a need for a deity.

Evidently evolution doesn't think so because the more scientists look at the human brain and the way it works the more it seems human biological evolutionary history confirms the presence of a spiritual dimension evolving right alongside of the material one. Human beings have been worshiping spirits and reacting to spiritual phenomena for tens of thousands of years and you need to ask yourself why even our brains are hardwired to receive spiritual phenomena, e.g. n.d.e.'s, if as you think it doesn't exist. These are the End Times of Atheism and the more science delves into the human mind and the mechanics of Creation the more spiritual aspects are showing up as built into our physical universe.