Alone forever

[InChrist]

Can anyone imagine or would anyone want to imagine the kind of being that would create a universe where people end up alone for eternity?



In your religion do more people end up united with your deity or alone forever?

The point is that the Creator is a Being who created each person to spend eternity together with others enjoying the presence of His love and beauty forever. People were not created to be alone or to live independently of their Creator. I don't know how many end up in one or the other eternal states, but the scriptures indicate that although multitudes will be in heaven eternally, Jesus said, “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” Matthew 7:13-14

Read more: Will more people go to heaven or to hell?
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[Penumbra]

The point is that the Creator is a Being who created each person to spend eternity together with others enjoying the presence of His love and beauty forever. People were not created to be alone or to live independently of their Creator. I don't know how many end up in one or the other eternal states, but the scriptures indicate that although multitudes will be in heaven eternally, Jesus said, “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” Matthew 7:13-14

Read more: Will more people go to heaven or to hell?
​

Why would there be a wide and easy gate that leads to destruction in a perfect universe? It makes no sense.

 

[Thief]

Why would there be a wide and easy gate that leads to destruction in a perfect universe? It makes no sense.

If heaven is a place....would there be peace?

How to make sure of it?
Throw offenders into the bottomless pit.

Any black hole will do.

 

[Penumbra]

If heaven is a place....would there be peace?

How to make sure of it?
Throw offenders into the bottomless pit.

Any black hole will do.

Sounds like the most malevolent thing I've heard in a while. Although the mainstream Christian and Islam deities do tend to be the most malevolent beings I've heard described, essentially by definition, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, if there was peace prior to existence, and there is a combination of peace and suffering post existence, then existence was an imperfect folly, at least as far as that worldview goes.

 

[Thief]

Sounds like the most malevolent thing I've heard in a while. Although the mainstream Christian and Islam deities do tend to be the most malevolent beings I've heard described, essentially by definition, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, if there was peace prior to existence, and there is a combination of peace and suffering post existence, then existence was an imperfect folly, at least as far as that worldview goes.

Shall we endeavor heaven's viewpoint?

 

[Penumbra]

Shall we endeavor heaven's viewpoint?

Meaning shall we limit the scope of the discussion?

Build an us-vs-them tribe out of it, and make the deity look as small and human-like as possible?

 

[Thief]

Meaning shall we limit the scope of the discussion?

Build an us-vs-them tribe out of it, and make the deity look as small and human-like as possible?

Quite the opposite.
Imagine dealing with Something ....
bigger, faster, stronger, more intelligent, and greatly experienced.

Coupled with the power of creation...stacked deck.

Imagine further.....
He has been alone for a long time.
With plenty of consideration the company He desires to keep.

 

[Penumbra]

Quite the opposite.
Imagine dealing with Something ....
bigger, faster, stronger, more intelligent, and greatly experienced.

Coupled with the power of creation...stacked deck.

Imagine further.....
He has been alone for a long time.
With plenty of consideration the company He desires to keep.

All of which are human and finite terms to describe this being.

 

[Thief]

All of which are human and finite terms to describe this being.

The language and 'terms' are human enough....

 

[Penumbra]

The language and 'terms' are human enough....

As are the concepts that those terms lead to.

It appears to be a human describing human-like emotions and actions of a deity. Limited, finite, etc.

 

[Thief]

As are the concepts that those terms lead to.

It appears to be a human describing human-like emotions and actions of a deity. Limited, finite, etc.

And the power of creation has a limit?

In fairness to you I would help you argue..it does.
In fairness to myself.....the power of creation makes Him......God.

 

[Penumbra]

And the power of creation has a limit?

In fairness to you I would help you argue..it does.
In fairness to myself.....the power of creation makes Him......God.

If you'd like to argue that your deity and creation has a limit, then be my guest.

The worldview that you present certainly seems finite and limited so I wouldn't disagree with you there.

 

[Thief]

If you'd like to argue that your deity and creation has a limit, then be my guest.

The worldview that you present certainly seems finite and limited so I wouldn't disagree with you there.

Reality has limits.
God created reality.
God has limits.

For creation to hold firm (firmament) there must be fixed limitation.
Variables must be allowed....or all things become 'fixed' to extreme.

A sort of 'tight rope'.
Too much allowance and the whole thing falls apart.
Too much fixation and the whole thing won't evolve.

Ask if you raise the dead....Jesus.
Ask if you may forgo food and water forty days and nights....Moses.

But then on other occasions....denial and silence.

Limitation?.....of God?.....of course.

But Who Greater to call upon?

 

[Penumbra]

For creation to hold firm (firmament) there must be fixed limitation.

This premise is not justified or argued, and so the conclusions from the premise are not either.

 

[Bird123]

Can anyone imagine or would anyone want to be completely alone for eternity?



I believe the scriptures indicate that separation from God is the eternal destiny of anyone who refuses to admit or give up sin and according to the scriptures everyone is guilty of sin. Various descriptions are used to portray what the condition of separation will be like, such as; outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth or burning fire. The Bible also says God is Love. He is the source of love and without His presence I believe love is nonexistent. So my understanding is that being separated from God and His love will also mean being separated from everyone else because love which now connects people together would no longer be active in the state of being separated from God.

Logic dictates that God, the Being supposedly responsible for creating it all has to be very very smart. Wouldn't a Being capable of creating such a wonderful universe also be capable of creating a system better than the one you describe? Further, if God is supposed to be just, how could God justify eternal punishment without the possibility of redemption for any crime that could be committed? To me, it doesn't add up.

 

[Riverwolf]

In the Bible it talks of the Israelites killing other tribes because of their false gods. There was definitely religious rivalry.

One example from antiquity.

There are many good things about religion, but I think at its base it is a motivator and it is power. Motivation and power can swing both ways.

How is that the base of religion?

 

[Riverwolf]

If you go back 5,500 years to the dawn of the first state societies in ancient Sumer, you will find religion is already being used to support and justify a class of political and social elites. (Albeit, if you go back before that -- to the religions of hunting gatherers -- it seems likely you would not find the same incestuous relationship between religious and political power.) Moreover, of all the early state societies, including the Andean, and Meso-American societies, perhaps only the Indus Valley civilization was without a priestly class supporting a political and social elite. But that's just a "perhaps". Far more likely, we just haven't found the temples yet, in my opinion.

I'm primarily referring to the scam aspect, not the combination of religion and politics.

 

[InChrist]

Why would there be a wide and easy gate that leads to destruction in a perfect universe? It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense because in a perfect universe the standard required is perfection. Meeting this standard of perfection is difficult, actually impossible for fallen humans, but rather than take the perfect way God has provided, many prefer to make their own way which is wide and easy, but leads to destruction.

 

[Riverwolf]

It makes perfect sense because in a perfect universe the standard required is perfection. Meeting this standard of perfection is difficult, actually impossible for fallen humans, but rather than take the perfect way God has provided, many prefer to make their own way which is wide and easy, but leads to destruction.

But in a perfect universe, perfection is the default, and thus the natural, easy way. It's not a state to be reached, or a state that can be lost, but the state that always is.

 

[InChrist]

But in a perfect universe, perfection is the default, and thus the natural, easy way. It's not a state to be reached, or a state that can be lost, but the state that always is.

Or it may be that the Perfect Creator desires His creatures to choose/respond in freedom and love to participate in His perfect universe rather than deprive them of these qualities by forcing them to be perfect by default.