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Alone forever

WyattDerp

Active Member
It makes perfect sense because in a perfect universe the standard required is perfection.

Which makes no sense because "perfect" is just a meaningless word that everybody can define to mean what they want, without even saying what exactly what they mean by it.

But why complain when I can play the game, too: In a perfect universe nothing is required, not even a standard of perfection, because "less needy == more perfect". There, done.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
This premise is not justified or argued, and so the conclusions from the premise are not either.

Oh...but I think it stands to good reason.

No doubt you've seen some science fiction story somewhere along the way....
The main character becomes telekinetically empowered...
and the rest of the cast is made to deal with it.

At some point the main character realizes....he can't say yes to himself at every turn.
Reality would become difficult...if not out of control.

Of course...God as creator...has been doing such things for a very long time.
So I've heard.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Which makes no sense because "perfect" is just a meaningless word that everybody can define to mean what they want, without even saying what exactly what they mean by it.

But why complain when I can play the game, too: In a perfect universe nothing is required, not even a standard of perfection, because "less needy == more perfect". There, done.

Perhaps when used in the flow of a discussion....such as....
'Be thou perfect....as your Father in heaven is perfect.'

Might be a bit much to ask.....such a high standard.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Which makes no sense because "perfect" is just a meaningless word that everybody can define to mean what they want, without even saying what exactly what they mean by it.

But why complain when I can play the game, too: In a perfect universe nothing is required, not even a standard of perfection, because "less needy == more perfect". There, done.


If "perfect"is to be defined by everyone you may have a point, it would be meaningless. Yet, that isn't the case if yours, mine, or everyone's ideas of perfection are inaccurate and irrelevant... if only the Creator God's definition of perfection is correct.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Or it may be that the Perfect Creator desires His creatures to choose/respond in freedom and love to participate in His perfect universe rather than deprive them of these qualities by forcing them to be perfect by default.

And thus these creatures are not perfect, and this imperfection negates the existence of a perfect universe, for a perfect universe must be 100% without defect.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Or it may be that the Perfect Creator desires His creatures to choose/respond in freedom and love to participate in His perfect universe rather than deprive them of these qualities by forcing them to be perfect by default.

Yu are assuming that he couldnt have made usoth free and perfect, if freedom is not perfect then god is either free or perfect.

Also if be couldnt do us both free and perfect, then he is not completely omnipotent
 

InChrist

Free4ever
And thus these creatures are not perfect, and this imperfection negates the existence of a perfect universe, for a perfect universe must be 100% without defect.


Imperfect creatures do not necessarily negate the existence of a perfect universe... if a perfect universe is the ultimate goal, which can only be attained by allowing for imperfect choices at present.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Yu are assuming that he couldnt have made usoth free and perfect, if freedom is not perfect then god is either free or perfect.

Also if be couldnt do us both free and perfect, then he is not completely omnipotent

I am assuming this because God is Love according to the scriptures and true love must allow for freedom. If God made or forced His creatures to be perfect with no ability to choose or respond to Him in love then He would be violating His own character and the image in which we are made. His omnipotence is not incomplete or threatened at all if this is the way He in His wisdom saw best to design things.
 

WyattDerp

Active Member
Perhaps when used in the flow of a discussion....such as....
'Be thou perfect....as your Father in heaven is perfect.'

Then it's still subjective? To a bunch of thugs perfection would mean something like having a real sweet roundhouse kick, to others it means love and forgiveness, to yet others to be a super hardcore bureaucrat who never breaks a guideline and constantly repeats them to others. To some people it means having fantastic sex with lots of people, to others it means having fantastic sex with one person for the rest of their lives, to yet others it means catching/buying a bird and having it lay a bunch of eggs for you.

"be perfect", "be awesome", "be skillfull", "don't be a square"; it's all nice and in context it does mean things when people say it, but without that context it's really up to everybody to define stuff for themselves and therefore says nothing.

Might be a bit much to ask.....such a high standard.

I'm kind of the misanthropic cynic lately, but when I was more into "all that stuff" I really liked the idea that you don't follow a bunch of commandments in the hope to appease God, but that the love and the joy come first, and then not wanting to kill or steal or be mean follows naturally. Maybe it works both ways, sure, but I think it's pretty much a constant in the Bible that God gives people the power to do what God wants of them, every single time. But of course he also does stuff like randomly hardening a heart here and there to make a point, and that's where I'm out, that's not something a God that "is love" would meddle with, or geopolitics for that matter. So think all that stuff is just piggybacking on the natural beauty that already exists, and which we sometimes can catch glimpses of in our own hearts, and which is so pure and true that it would never descend to lows such as writing a book, or handing out positions. But now I'm rambling sorry ^^
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Then it's still subjective? To a bunch of thugs perfection would mean something like having a real sweet roundhouse kick, to others it means love and forgiveness, to yet others to be a super hardcore bureaucrat who never breaks a guideline and constantly repeats them to others. To some people it means having fantastic sex with lots of people, to others it means having fantastic sex with one person for the rest of their lives, to yet others it means catching/buying a bird and having it lay a bunch of eggs for you.

"be perfect", "be awesome", "be skillfull", "don't be a square"; it's all nice and in context it does mean things when people say it, but without that context it's really up to everybody to define stuff for themselves and therefore says nothing.



I'm kind of the misanthropic cynic lately, but when I was more into "all that stuff" I really liked the idea that you don't follow a bunch of commandments in the hope to appease God, but that the love and the joy come first, and then not wanting to kill or steal or be mean follows naturally. Maybe it works both ways, sure, but I think it's pretty much a constant in the Bible that God gives people the power to do what God wants of them, every single time. But of course he also does stuff like randomly hardening a heart here and there to make a point, and that's where I'm out, that's not something a God that "is love" would meddle with, or geopolitics for that matter. So think all that stuff is just piggybacking on the natural beauty that already exists, and which we sometimes can catch glimpses of in our own hearts, and which is so pure and true that it would never descend to lows such as writing a book, or handing out positions. But now I'm rambling sorry ^^

I mentioned writing a book just moments ago.(another thread)
Forgive me if it seems pretentious.....'the Gospel of Robert'.

The thing is...I believe we each are writing a book.
It is engraved in your mind and heart.
It stays there until you speak of it....or write it down.

But the scripture makes notation....'and the books of life will be opened'.
And some of the books will be cast into the fire.

So I've read anyway.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Imperfect creatures do not necessarily negate the existence of a perfect universe... if a perfect universe is the ultimate goal, which can only be attained by allowing for imperfect choices at present.

We're part of the universe; we're as much a part of its make as the earth itself.

Therefore, imperfect creatures negate the existence of a perfect universe.

If a perfect universe is the goal, fine, but that means the universe was not perfect at the outset, and certainly isn't now, but will be at some point in the future.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
We're part of the universe; we're as much a part of its make as the earth itself.

Therefore, imperfect creatures negate the existence of a perfect universe.

If a perfect universe is the goal, fine, but that means the universe was not perfect at the outset, and certainly isn't now, but will be at some point in the future.

Well let's say that creating Man in perfection was not the intention.
Just saying.

I believe the imperfection would be the item that makes each one unique.
Each one stained or turned in each his own way.
This is what makes us interesting.

But what if the stain and twist make the spirit difficult to be near.
What if your presence is more of a problem than a pleasure?

Is the universe large enough that you can be left......alone?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Well let's say that creating Man in perfection was not the intention.
Just saying.

I believe the imperfection would be the item that makes each one unique.
Each one stained or turned in each his own way.
This is what makes us interesting.

Very true.

But what if the stain and twist make the spirit difficult to be near.
What if your presence is more of a problem than a pleasure?

And what if aliens built the pyramids? What if they gave us the ability to perform amazing feats?

Is the universe large enough that you can be left......alone?

Well, no, because the only part of the universe where I can survive is this earth; anywhere else is so far determined inhospitable.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Very true.



And what if aliens built the pyramids? What if they gave us the ability to perform amazing feats?



Well, no, because the only part of the universe where I can survive is this earth; anywhere else is so far determined inhospitable.

What if God is the ultimate....ET?

And the spiritual life can be solitary.
as in God.....after He speaks...'I AM'...
and before He creates other life.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
We're part of the universe; we're as much a part of its make as the earth itself.

Therefore, imperfect creatures negate the existence of a perfect universe.

If a perfect universe is the goal, fine, but that means the universe was not perfect at the outset, and certainly isn't now, but will be at some point in the future.



In a sense I agree with you. The perspective revealed in the scriptures is that all of creation which was good at the beginning is negatively impacted by human sin and is awaiting deliverance.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.Romans 8:20-22
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
What if God is the ultimate....ET?

And the spiritual life can be solitary.
as in God.....after He speaks...'I AM'...
and before He creates other life.

My "what if" statement was one of sarcasm.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
In a sense I agree with you. The perspective revealed in the scriptures is that all of creation which was good at the beginning is negatively impacted by human sin and is awaiting deliverance.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.Romans 8:20-22

It's a perspective that, frankly, doesn't make much sense to me.

Good is a human concept. Outside the human mind, there is nothing good or evil.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
It's a perspective that, frankly, doesn't make much sense to me.

Good is a human concept. Outside the human mind, there is nothing good or evil.


And the perspective that good or evil exist only in the human mind does not make sense to me.


The eyes of the Lord are in every place, Keeping watch on the evil and the good.Proverbs 15:3


But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:14
 
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