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American Muslim women protest gender apartheid at mosque.
- Thread starter Autodidact
- Start date
Smoke
Done here.
The Orthodox Churches don't traditionally use musical instruments apart from percussion -- bells, talanton, and very occasionally drums. (I only know of drums being used in the Ethiopian Church.) Organs are not in keeping with the esthetic of the Divine Liturgy.
Pews are ridiculous in an Orthodox church because Orthodox Christians are expected to pray standing if they're physically capable of doing so. They also make it awkward to bow properly and impossible to make prostrations. If pews are used, they should be far enough apart to allow for prostrations, which in practice is almost never done. Pews also hinder movement; bear in mind that as worshipers enter an Orthodox church they will move about the church venerating icons and lighting candles. The liturgy is "the work of the people." Nothing should give the impression that the priest is a performer and the congregation is an audience.
Smoke
Done here.
But when you ask them to consider gay worshipers you are asking them to consider homosexuality as acceptable on some level. They are generally not willing to do so.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
OK, thanks.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
.lava
Veteran Member
some part of it is about ability. Imams have to be at mosque during salaat time to lead public everyday. but women can't do that because performing salaats requires ablution. one of the things that break ablution is having period which means a lady would not be able to perform salaats for a few days in every month. pregnancy and giving birth are also would keep her away. a Imam has to talk to anyone, he can't refuse to talk to someone. any kind of people both men and women. IMO that's the though part. i personally would not wish to communicate with certain kind of men in person. it might be dangerous. there've been many messengers tortured and killed by others, Imams also has to deal with any kind of men from the most ignorant to less ignorant
PS: i wish i could explain more but i am ill, i need to rest. excuse me for that
.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
Autodidact, I've noticed you seem to have changed your tone with many of your threads about Islam, most noticably I'm talking about how before you made the "We declare gender equality a foundation of Islam" - or whatever - thread.
Have you changed your mind or are you more curious about how current day Muslim societies practice said religion?
Just curious
Have you changed your mind or are you more curious about how current day Muslim societies practice said religion?
Just curious
It depends on what you are used to, if you know from the start that men pray together and women together, you won't be distracted. Trust me.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
It depends on what you are used to, if you know from the start that men pray together and women together, you won't be distracted. Trust me.
I still think Penguins point about the Male Imam's voice being a distraction to the Women is a good one and needs to be addressed more here.
What's your opinion on it? Oh and by the way, what a coincidence about me wishing you well on your exams on the very day you had one! I must have Psychic powers!
^_^
You can love her anywhere else, lol. What you said is sweet but she won't get lost!!
Seriously Penguin, this kind of thinking would be superficial for a Muslim because it neglects the aim of going to the mosque. The Muslim go to the mosque to pray to his God, to give all his concentration to his God, not to think about stuff like this. And the wife or the husband will go to do the same. Our main focus is Allah, and we should throw away the worldly life from our thinking, and enjoy the sweetness of prayers or any talk that brings us closer to Him.
All these things, where I would meet her etc should be pre-planned and there is the invention of cell phones.
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No.
Never heard it was a distraction for women. A mosque is a mosque not a special place for men whether there is a separate area or room for women or not. I believe a mosque is a place where muslims should be raised up whether males or females, old or young. I also think that women should go to the mosque from time to time either to pray or to attend a tajweed lessons, lectures or khutba's or even to communicate with her muslim sisters. I can remember the first time i ever prayed al-fajr at a masjid, it was just amazing and i can't think of any thing else was more beautiful than this especially the imam's voice was sweet. Honestly i can't forget those moments and after it i said to myself how i missed all this beauty! Then, i kept going to pray al fajr, al 'isha and al mahgreb at our near masjid for some days and i 've noticed how praying at the mosque enhances my spirituality. Praying at the mosque was just as a short spiritual journey and wonderful one. After the prayer i feel that i was charged with a huge spiritual and faith charge. Moreover, i feel more khushu' in the mosque. I know that the kushu' and the spiritual charging can be said about any salah even in home but i don't know it was just different in the mosque. Being at the mosque just makes me comfortable. And when my father finds me lazy to go to pray al fajr in the masjid, he tells me the hadith of the prophet not to prohibit women from going to mosque, trying to encourage me to go. In addition, the mosque allowed me to know other muslims sisters and to communicate with them.
About the separate women areas...i don't think the separation is that bad as praying in a separate ladies area allows me to be more comfortable, sometimes i take off my head scarf, laying down or sitting in a way i wouldn't do in front of men. Being with men restricts me. But i found that the special women place promotes the idea that women shouldn't go or pray at where men pray. "If there isn't a special women place, then go your home, no place for you to pray" while the whole masjid is there!!!! Or if a woman went there, she would be viewed as an alien being at the wrong place!! Once at a taraweeh prayer, the ladies area was full where there is a good space at "men's area", i suggested to go praying behind men, i found my sisters were hesitated to go there and wondering if this was okay. I told them of course, women were praying behind men without a barrier at the prophet's time (pbuh)!!!
The other point that bothers me that by default women should have a smaller area than men. For instance, at the college masjid, the ladies area is very small that make many girls don't find a place to pray at, so this leads them to leave the masjid to pray at another place which doesn't happen with my male colleagues. The females number may be larger than the males' in our college, so why is that??!!
Also, i was shocked to know that at some areas, women are not allowed to pray at the mosque. I believe this indicates that women don't have their full rights not only regarding the mosque issue but at other life aspects.
This was my reply to a similar issue, long time ago
:http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/51003-me-mosque-women-islam.html#post818074
lol
I know she won't get lost, but I tend to worry about little details like this for anything.
So... when Muslims go to their mosques, they strive to put distractions out of their mind?
Doesn't this speak against the practice of segregating men and women, then? Why is it that one class of distractions is apparently considered insurmountable, but the rest (e.g. day-to-day worries, as well as things like the distraction of seeing people you don't like) aren't?
To me, being around women is no more of a distraction than all these other things, so I don't see why it would be treated any differently than other distractions.
As I said, plan all this stuff ahead. "Honey, I'll meet you in front of this gate. After the prayers are finished, wait 5 min inside the mosque so that you won't have to wait for me outside or I'll give you a ring..." How is that?
You are not the first husband who goes to the mosque with his wife.
And if you worry about little details, then what will make you really worried is your shoes...LOL.
After the prayers, you can be surprised that your shoes have gone. "My shoes, someone stole my shoes!!" And you would have to search for anything to wear like slippers. :yes:But during Hajj, the issue is completely different, the husband takes his wife under his arm while praying, separation is impractical here.
Yes, of course. During the prayers specifically whether you pray at mosque or anywhere else.
Islamically speaking the lines of the mosque are organized as follows:
The Imam is in the front, followed by men lines, then children lines then women lines come. During early Islamic time, they were all praying at the same hall but according to this order women behind men (without any physical separation between them), the children may act as the barrier
). So I don't know what you mean by separation, is it this special separate roof/room/balcony for women (or the wall or curtain or whatsoever between women and men) or simply that women and men can't pray beside each other? And If it was the last; Muslim women wear hijab so praying behind men acts as a veil for them. Secondly, Muslims pray shoulder to shoulder and foot to foot, and this kind of contact between men and women is haram.
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Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
In terms of prayer distractions, why would a Woman distract a Man more than a Man would distract another Man?
Under what criteria are you "measuring" overall distraction levels and what things distract and what things don't distract?
Also, under what criteria are you assessing how much of actual "distraction" affects one's prayer quality to God - have you tried asking him directly?
Under what criteria are you "measuring" overall distraction levels and what things distract and what things don't distract?
Also, under what criteria are you assessing how much of actual "distraction" affects one's prayer quality to God - have you tried asking him directly?
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
Yeah but if you're in a Mosque praying, God-knows what many things will distract you.
Anything could distract you, and anything could not distract you. Who's saying that Women:
1) Will distract the Men.
2) The distraction of Women (or any distraction in general) will negatively affect a Muslim's prayer capability to God.
What if the pattern on the rugs distract, or the smell of the Man next to him etc, or something generally on the Muslims conscious?
I'm probably not the first husband to worry about these sorts of things either. And my wife doesn't currently have a cell phone.As I said, plan all this stuff ahead. "Honey, I'll meet you in front of this gate. After the prayers are finished, wait 5 min inside the mosque so that you won't have to wait for me outside or I'll give you a ring..." How is that?
You are not the first husband who goes to the mosque with his wife.
Heh... I used to not worry about that sort of thing, but I have in the last few months, ever since my father-in-law left a family gathering wearing my shoes. We have the same sized feet, and I guess our shoes looked similar.And if you worry about little details, then what will make you really worried is your shoes...LOL.
I was thinking more about instances of physical separation, like in the story in the OP: mosques where the women aren't permitted to be in the same room as the Imam. I know not all mosques are like this, but I wonder why the ones that are do things that way.
I'm not sure what you mean here: are you saying that women wearing hijab, all lined up behind men, makes it like the men are wearing the hijab?
That still wouldn't prevent the sort of arrangement that Smoke described for traditional Orthodox Christian churches: men on one side and women on the other, separate, but in positions that are equal in terms of status and stature.
On the first page of the thread, aymen amir told us that the reason for separating the men from the women was that women posed a great distraction for men. That's what started the questioning about other distractions, since it seems that other potentially worse distractions don't receive the same treatment.
This might be interesting:
Both men and women are allowed to pray in the Mosque in the same Jama`ah (congregational prayer). When men and women are together in the Masjid then we should have first men’s lines behind the Imam, then children and then women. This is the way Muslims used to pray behind the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). He did not make or ask his Companions to have a curtain or wall between the lines of men and women.
According to the Shari`ah, it is not required to have a partition, neither of temporary nor of permanent nature, between men and women in the Masjid.
It is perfectly Islamic to hold meetings of men and women inside the Masjid, whether for prayers or for any other Islamic purpose, without separating them with a curtain, partition or wall.
It is, however, very important that Muslim women come to public gatherings wearing proper Islamic dress, for it is Haram (forbidden) for a Muslim woman to attend a public gathering without a full Islamic dress. She must cover her hair and neck with a scarf, which should also go over her bosom. Her dress should be modest and loose enough in order not to reveal the shape of her body.
It stands to reason that partitions were introduced inside the Masajid later in Islamic history. This was done, perhaps, because some women began coming to Mosques without observing proper Islamic dress, or perhaps, some men wanted to discourage them from coming to Mosques. In the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) there was no curtain or partition in his Masjid, although women used to come to the Masjid almost for every prayer and for many other gatherings. It is, however, reported that they used to come to the Masjid dressed up in long clothes. `A’ishah, the Mother of the Believers (may Allah be pleased with her) said that the believing women used to attend the Dawn prayer with the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). They used to come wrapped up in their long garments and then they used to return to their homes after the prayer, no one could recognize them because of the darkness. (Reported by Al-Bukhari)
Jama`ah means a congregation of people who are praying behind one Imam in continuous lines without any barrier or interruption. As for people who pray behind the Imam, they should either see the Imam or see those who are in front of them. There is no Jama`ah when a person is in one room and his/her Imam in another room, the lines are not continuous and the people behind the Imam are also not visible, otherwise people would not have to come to the Masjid for Jama`ah prayer. They would stay home and pray listening to the loudspeakers from their Masjid or through intercoms. They could nowadays even pray Jama`ah prayer in this way in their own homes listening to the prayer broadcasts coming from Makkah and Madinah on their radios, television sets or through the Internet. But no jurists have ever allowed a Jama`ah prayer in this way.
The definition of Jama`ah that I gave above is a general one and it is applicable to both men and women. Only in the case of necessity this rule can be relaxed. For example, if the Masjid was too small and people had to pray on different levels or in different rooms to accommodate every person then this would be permissible because of necessity. Muslims should not deliberately and for no reason bifurcate their congregation in their Masajid.
If there is a concern that the lines of men and women will mix inside the Masajid, then there is no harm in putting a lower barrier, only to demarcate the separate area for women. But women should not be put in a totally separate room in the Masajid unless there is a shortage of space and no other proper arrangement can be done for them.
Partitions Between Men & Women in the Mosque - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
Both men and women are allowed to pray in the Mosque in the same Jama`ah (congregational prayer). When men and women are together in the Masjid then we should have first men’s lines behind the Imam, then children and then women. This is the way Muslims used to pray behind the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). He did not make or ask his Companions to have a curtain or wall between the lines of men and women.
According to the Shari`ah, it is not required to have a partition, neither of temporary nor of permanent nature, between men and women in the Masjid.
It is perfectly Islamic to hold meetings of men and women inside the Masjid, whether for prayers or for any other Islamic purpose, without separating them with a curtain, partition or wall.
It is, however, very important that Muslim women come to public gatherings wearing proper Islamic dress, for it is Haram (forbidden) for a Muslim woman to attend a public gathering without a full Islamic dress. She must cover her hair and neck with a scarf, which should also go over her bosom. Her dress should be modest and loose enough in order not to reveal the shape of her body.
It stands to reason that partitions were introduced inside the Masajid later in Islamic history. This was done, perhaps, because some women began coming to Mosques without observing proper Islamic dress, or perhaps, some men wanted to discourage them from coming to Mosques. In the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) there was no curtain or partition in his Masjid, although women used to come to the Masjid almost for every prayer and for many other gatherings. It is, however, reported that they used to come to the Masjid dressed up in long clothes. `A’ishah, the Mother of the Believers (may Allah be pleased with her) said that the believing women used to attend the Dawn prayer with the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). They used to come wrapped up in their long garments and then they used to return to their homes after the prayer, no one could recognize them because of the darkness. (Reported by Al-Bukhari)
Jama`ah means a congregation of people who are praying behind one Imam in continuous lines without any barrier or interruption. As for people who pray behind the Imam, they should either see the Imam or see those who are in front of them. There is no Jama`ah when a person is in one room and his/her Imam in another room, the lines are not continuous and the people behind the Imam are also not visible, otherwise people would not have to come to the Masjid for Jama`ah prayer. They would stay home and pray listening to the loudspeakers from their Masjid or through intercoms. They could nowadays even pray Jama`ah prayer in this way in their own homes listening to the prayer broadcasts coming from Makkah and Madinah on their radios, television sets or through the Internet. But no jurists have ever allowed a Jama`ah prayer in this way.
The definition of Jama`ah that I gave above is a general one and it is applicable to both men and women. Only in the case of necessity this rule can be relaxed. For example, if the Masjid was too small and people had to pray on different levels or in different rooms to accommodate every person then this would be permissible because of necessity. Muslims should not deliberately and for no reason bifurcate their congregation in their Masajid.
If there is a concern that the lines of men and women will mix inside the Masajid, then there is no harm in putting a lower barrier, only to demarcate the separate area for women. But women should not be put in a totally separate room in the Masajid unless there is a shortage of space and no other proper arrangement can be done for them.
Partitions Between Men & Women in the Mosque - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
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