American Muslim women protest gender apartheid at mosque.

[Gharib]

i don't understand what you're saying. are you saying someone who commit sins is not a Muslim? if that is the case then what's forgiveness of God for?

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yes the hadith says that when a muslim sins he/she is not a muslim at that particular time. in another hadith he (saws) has described our faith as a shirt. when we sin our shirt comes of, then it comes back on afterwards. and the prophet has said that just like all shirts that are overwarn so too is our faith by our sins (coming off and on again) so we must ask Allah (swt) to renew our faith and strengthen it.

both of these hadith can be found in Bukhari, i will show them to you when i find them inshallah

can you explain what you mean by "then what's forgiveness of God for?" i need to understand what you mean in order to reply to it.

 

[Peace]

the prophet has said that when a muslim sins he is but a muslim (sorry i couldn't find the exact hadith it is in Bukhari)

if someone says that he is a muslim and is gay, he is sinning. so he is but a muslim meaninf he is gay and not a muslim according to the hadith of he prophet (saws).

a muslim that commits murder is but a muslim when he murders someone. the same applies for a rapist, a liar, a thief, a drunk person etc etc.

Salamu `alaikum brother eselam,

Could you please try to find that Hadith, because what I know is that though a Muslim commits a major sin, he is still considered a Muslim but of course a sinful Muslim. Commiting a major sin doesn't mean that the sinful is no more a Muslim. What makes a muslim no more a Muslim the one who commits "Shirk" and the one who denies faith in Allah.

Allah knows best.

 

[Gharib]

Salamu `alaikum brother eselam,

Could you please try to find that Hadith, because what I know is that though a Muslim commits a major sin, he is still considered a Muslim but of course a sinful Muslim. Commiting a major sin doesn't mean that the sinful is no more a Muslim. What makes a muslim no more a Muslim the one who commits "Shirk" and the one who denies faith in Allah.

Allah knows best.

alaykum selam we rahmatullahi teala we baraktuh sister Peace.

i think you may have missunderstood what i said. sometimes the way i write things make it hard for people to understand.

what the hadith means is that when a muslim sins, at the time of his sinning he is not a muslim. he is a sinning muslim as you have said. this is completely different to shirk. by commiting shirk one goes out of islam totally. but by a smaller sin he is not considered a muslim at that very moment that he commits his sin. after he has sinned he is a muslim again.

if the above still doesn't make sense then please be patient untill i find the hadith and will show them to you as well as to .lava.

 

[.lava]

yes the hadith says that when a muslim sins he/she is not a muslim at that particular time. in another hadith he (saws) has described our faith as a shirt. when we sin our shirt comes of, then it comes back on afterwards. and the prophet has said that just like all shirts that are overwarn so too is our faith by our sins (coming off and on again) so we must ask Allah (swt) to renew our faith and strengthen it.

both of these hadith can be found in Bukhari, i will show them to you when i find them inshallah

can you explain what you mean by "then what's forgiveness of God for?" i need to understand what you mean in order to reply to it.

i don't know about the hadith. according to our teachings there is a degree system, Eselam. sin is what make people earn negative degrees and this degree system is not just for Muslims. in other words a Muslim who commit sin earns the same negative degree to a non-Muslim who commits the same sin. big or small we all commit sin. commiting sin would not make us a non-Muslims or evil. we would be sinful and if we notice it was wrong, then we can ask for forgiveness.

i ask what forgiveness of God for. because we all make mistakes. for some men homosexuality might be their test matter while you or some other men have completely different test subject. that would not make a man who's tested with homosexuality less Muslim or less human. maybe some men can not empathize with gay people because they have very different nature so their test in this life has nothing to do with homosexuality. forgiveness of God is for everyone, for every human being. that's why i ask that question. if homosexuality is a sin, then it is something to forgive.

let me remind you this verse from Qur'an;

16:61 If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour).

.

 

[Gharib]

i don't know about the hadith. according to our teachings there is a degree system, Eselam. sin is what make people earn negative degrees and this degree system is not just for Muslims. in other words a Muslim who commit sin earns the same negative degree to a non-Muslim who commits the same sin. big or small we all commit sin. commiting sin would not make us a non-Muslims or evil. we would be sinful and if we notice it was wrong, then we can ask for forgiveness.

i ask what forgiveness of God for. because we all make mistakes. for some men homosexuality might be their test matter while you or some other men have completely different test subject. that would not make a man who's tested with homosexuality less Muslim or less human. maybe some men can not empathize with gay people because they have very different nature so their test in this life has nothing to do with homosexuality. forgiveness of God is for everyone, for every human being. that's why i ask that question. if homosexuality is a sin, then it is something to forgive.

let me remind you this verse from Qur'an;

16:61 If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour).

.

yes homosexuality is a sin and is forgivable, Allah is most forgiving.

as for the other part, i'm affraid i'm not making much sense so i will have to find the hadith and then i hope that will clarify what i am trying to say. ishallah.

 

[.lava]

yes homosexuality is a sin and is forgivable, Allah is most forgiving.

as for the other part, i'm affraid i'm not making much sense so i will have to find the hadith and then i hope that will clarify what i am trying to say. ishallah.

OK, brother

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[Gabethewiking]

what i see is people are away from their roots. once people try to be like someone else, they lose their true identity.

Why simple not want to improve society which would make it similar to "western" culture (by your own standard) by default?

It is interesting how Arab nations/cultures do not create the most amazing technologies, the best cars and so forth, perhaps there is a link here? (Come to think of it, do they create anything?)

I am not saying to "lose your true identity", whatever that means, but to remove the BAD things in your culture, which Muslim nations, especially in the Middle East, show (oppression of woman, physical or mentally, oppression of Homosexuality, oppression of freedom of thought and so on).

 

[Gharib]

Why simple not want to improve society which would make it similar to "western" culture (by your own standard) by default?

It is interesting how Arab nations/cultures do not create the most amazing technologies, the best cars and so forth, perhaps there is a link here? (Come to think of it, do they create anything?)

I am not saying to "lose your true identity", whatever that means, but to remove the BAD things in your culture, which Muslim nations, especially in the Middle East, show (oppression of woman, physical or mentally, oppression of Homosexuality, oppression of freedom of thought and so on).

very nice post, you forgot one thing.

where was the west when muslims where shining light on this planet due to their knowledge and discoveries and their creations. i believe you forgot to mentione that. i'm sure it wasn't intentional.

 

[Gabethewiking]

very nice post, you forgot one thing.

where was the west when muslims where shining light on this planet due to their knowledge and discoveries and their creations. i believe you forgot to mentione that. i'm sure it wasn't intentional.

How is past events relevant?
Live in the present not the past. Today not yesterday.

Yes, once you could beat your woman and kill infidels without problems, but today that is not okay, Today we treat pèople equal, very un-traditional yes, but this is the new world. Your view?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

lol you're interesting

laws are for anyone. sure there are men who's not distracted by women. but if there is a law in Islam, that law is not written considering the best kind of men or the worst. one can not come up with the idea like "i am not distracted by anyone so this law should not include me". laws are applied to everyone equally

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I don't think that's the issue. To me, this rule is an example of unequal treatment. There are many sorts of distractions a person could encounter that would take away a person's concentration during prayer. Many of them would create a greater distraction than the presence of the opposite sex... yet, apparently, only this one gets this extreme sort of response.

there are no homosexual muslims. such people don't exist. you either are muslim or you are homosexual.

Yup. No true Muslim is homosexual. And no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus can all give reasons now to try to explain the segregation of women, but I think the segregation came first and the reasons came later.

I get that impression as well.

In church basements and parish halls all across America, Orthodox and Catholic and Protestant Christians gather after services and have coffee together. Nobody asks, Why do we stand around and talk after services? Why do we serve coffee? Why do we offer powdered creamer to put in the coffee, and not butterscotch syrup? Why sugar and artificial sweeteners, but not honey or molasses? It's done, and done the way it's done, because that's how we do things. None of it has any ponderous significance or deep meaning; it's just the way things are done. Is somebody certain to come along and say, "Why don't we have herbal tea and bottled water instead of coffee?" Of course they are. Will they meet resistance? Of course they will.

Heh... I think when it comes to the UUs, getting rid of the coffee after the service would be cause for schism.

homosexuality is a sin in islam. the people of prophet Lut (as) were destroyed for openly practising homosexuality.

It consistently boggles my mind when people read a story of attempted same-sex gang rape (and extreme inhospitality to guests) and decide that what's offensive in all of it is the "same-sex" part and not the "attempted gang rape" part or even the "inhospitality" part.

When you say things like that, you may as well tattoo "my moral compass is broken" across your forehead.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Yup. No true Muslim is homosexual. And no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

I use cinnamon myself.
I guess the homosexuals themselves would consider himself/hereself "true", but I do not know who decides what is a "real one", I guess it could be similar to Creationism-talk, "anyone I do not agree with is none-true".

 

[.lava]

Why simple not want to improve society which would make it similar to "western" culture (by your own standard) by default?

It is interesting how Arab nations/cultures do not create the most amazing technologies, the best cars and so forth, perhaps there is a link here? (Come to think of it, do they create anything?)

I am not saying to "lose your true identity", whatever that means, but to remove the BAD things in your culture, which Muslim nations, especially in the Middle East, show (oppression of woman, physical or mentally, oppression of Homosexuality, oppression of freedom of thought and so on).

once upon a time Muslims had great nations with intellectual studies. it was before, not now and i admit it because i see it. what i am saying is they were Muslims back then, they were people who practice Islam yet they were into studies, inventions and so on. today they are not. since in both times these people have the same religion, i think it is fair to say religion is not the reason for going down or backwards. now, am i being clear?

losing your ID is a serious matter my friend. for example, if i have to study in English at school instead of my own language, that's losing your ID. i don't mind learning other languages, matter of fact i am all for it but putting my own language aside is not something i would be OK with.

don't make me talk about Arab authorities please. i don't have positive thoughts about them. it is authorities job to provide their people education. there is something wrong with authorities IMO and we can discuss wrong doings but first, you should admit that it is not only Muslim nations that hold wrong doers among them. just one American lie caused death of over a million Muslims in Iraq. i don't wish to bring this up again and again but can't help it when someone talks to me as if there was nothing wrong in other nations.

sure, i would like to see oppression disappear. at the moment i would like to see Western armies disappear from Muslim nations more though. at least we did not invade a nation and kill 1.5 million civilians. in case we did, you would never stop talking about it. but Western did it and we are still the ones who have BAD things and we should change BAD things.

anyways...i don't really wish to talk like this. i hope you understand that i also don't wish to find myself defending Islam when my religion was accused for any BAD thing occur in our nations. if Islam was Muslim's excuse, then what's yours? high technology?

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[Autodidact]

I want to go back to the "no-female Imam" rule. Is that in the qur'an?

 

[Gabethewiking]

Allah is most forgiving.

The most more then what/who?

 

[Gharib]

How is past events relevant?
Live in the present not the past. Today not yesterday.

the present would not exist if it wasn't for the past. if muslims hadn't made all those discoveries, your western would would have been behind by a good number of centuries. the past shapes the future.

Yes, once you could beat your woman and kill infidels without problems, but today that is not okay, Today we treat pèople equal, very un-traditional yes, but this is the new world. Your view?

yeah look at all that evidence of muslims beating their women and killing infidels. thats impressive.
i can also see that equality that you speak of, men giving birth, women having penises, very nice, keep it up. do you want to see the evidence?

 

[Gharib]

I want to go back to the "no-female Imam" rule. Is that in the qur'an?

what about it?

women can lead women into prayer (at home).

 

[Gabethewiking]

the present would not exist if it wasn't for the past. if muslims hadn't made all those discoveries, your western would would have been behind by a good number of centuries. the past shapes the future.



yeah look at all that evidence of muslims beating their women and killing infidels. thats impressive.
i can also see that equality that you speak of, men giving birth, women having penises, very nice, keep it up. do you want to see the evidence?

Of course you are right. Now you sit there with your IBM/Mac or whatever computer you use, and when you go out, forget not to take your Muslim iPhone technology (if you can afford it) when you go to McDonald's/Burger King (if you can afford it, its a expensive and luxurius place in poor Musllim nations) and enjoy the Muslim life you have with all that Muslim tecnhology...

Good luck with that.

 

[Gharib]

Of course you are right. Now you sit there with your IBM/Mac or whatever computer you use, and when you go out, forget not to take your Muslim iPhone technology (if you can afford it) when you go to McDonald's/Burger King (if you can afford it, its a expensive and luxurius place in poor Musllim nations) and enjoy the Muslim life you have with all that Muslim tecnhology...

Good luck with that.

ha ha, lol. nice save man. thats the funiest post i've seen in ages, i'll frubal you for it.

btw muslims don't go to macas unless they have hallah food.

 

[Kerr]

people have different weaknesses. this kind of stuff is for people in general. that is not to say all men are distracted by women. not all men are the same and not all women are the same either

.

I know, still find it weird . Personally I just thinks if people want to pray with the same sex or the opposite is their business and not mine, so I just find the law part of it all to be weird... from my perspective. But that is just my personal opinion, lol.

 

[.lava]

I don't think that's the issue. To me, this rule is an example of unequal treatment. There are many sorts of distractions a person could encounter that would take away a person's concentration during prayer. Many of them would create a greater distraction than the presence of the opposite sex... yet, apparently, only this one gets this extreme sort of response.

i disagree. i think it is equal treatment. both man and woman are separated. if a man wants to pray among women, he would be rejected. Islam is not just about praying, friend. one has to purify his ego. if not, of course he would be as weak as possible. he would be so weak that even if there was not women around him, his thoughts would hunt him or he would be hunted by other stuff, his business deals, his mother's illness, his failure of exams...etc. at mosque goodness of majority is protected but of course no law are there to protect people from themselves. it is their job to "apply" cure by purifying ego

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