• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

American Muslims Are Now More Accepting Of Homosexuality Than White Evangelicals

Lets look at some indisputable facts. Any alleged moslem who is "tolerant" of homosexuals can be only one of two things, practicing taqyya, or not a real moslem. How do I know this ? I KNOW what their holy books say. (koran, hadith(s). EVERY true moslem must accept EVERY word of their prophet, EVERY instruction of their prophet as directly from the moon god, and binding.

While I appreciate your nuanced view of Islamic jurisprudence Sheik Shmogie, some Muslims do indeed disagree with your 'indisputable facts'.

In classical Islamic civilization, Muslim authorities allowed Zoroastrians to engage in brother-sister marriage, Jews to charge interest, and Christians to cultivate wine and pigs...

Because the scholars who built up the Shariah system could easily have prohibited such practices among its subjects but did not, the Shariah effectively facilitated them. If Muslim scholars and rulers permitted practices that they considered reprehensible and were in a position to deracinate, a fortiori (min bāb al-awlā), a Muslim minority with no power to regulate the conduct of those around it, like ours in the West, can condone the rights of others to reprehensible practices.


Incest & Widow Burning: How Much Can Muslims Stomach? – Dr. Jonathan Brown
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
While I appreciate your nuanced view of Islamic jurisprudence Sheik Shmogie, some Muslims do indeed disagree with your 'indisputable facts'.

In classical Islamic civilization, Muslim authorities allowed Zoroastrians to engage in brother-sister marriage, Jews to charge interest, and Christians to cultivate wine and pigs...

Because the scholars who built up the Shariah system could easily have prohibited such practices among its subjects but did not, the Shariah effectively facilitated them. If Muslim scholars and rulers permitted practices that they considered reprehensible and were in a position to deracinate, a fortiori (min bāb al-awlā), a Muslim minority with no power to regulate the conduct of those around it, like ours in the West, can condone the rights of others to reprehensible practices.


Incest & Widow Burning: How Much Can Muslims Stomach? – Dr. Jonathan Brown
Those folk you are speaking of were allowed to survive by paying a weekly tax collected by the local imam and passed up the chain. They generated money, the moslem overlords wanted the money, ergo, lets look the other way. If they didn't pay the tax, their life, if they had one, would be hell. Quote Brown to the virtually obliterated Christian and Yazidi populations in the country's moslem immigrants are coming from today. Nevertheless, whatever "classical islam" did, it is irrelevant to what the prophet commands. They found a way around it, that's all.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Re: the OP. That is surprising, but in a way it's also not unexpected. Evangelical seems to carry with it completely different meaning in the US than in Europe too, most "evangelical Lutherans" are very tolerant to minorities even causing minorities to split into kindred groups to American Evangelicals that oppose tolerance of unbelief and many sexual dispositions.
Your statement re American Evangelicals is simply wrong. What does "tolerance of unbelief" mean ? What do you mean by tolerance in this respect ? I don't ask anybody I come across what the believe. If someone told me they were an atheist what possible difference would that make to me ? My neighbor and I have been friends for over 15 years, he is an atheist I am a Christian, we don't discuss either subject. Now, if an unbeliever wanted to join the Church, guess what ? We would'nt let him. Intolerant ? Yes, many churches have abandoned the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. They are free to do whatever they choose.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Some excellent points made here both by Christians and atheists re moslems.
Many of the posts, following the OP, are the blind leading the blind.

Lets look at some indisputable facts. Any alleged moslem who is "tolerant" of homosexuals can be only one of two things, practicing taqyya, or not a real moslem. How do I know this ? I KNOW what their holy books say. (koran, hadith(s). EVERY true moslem must accept EVERY word of their prophet, EVERY instruction of their prophet as directly from the moon god, and binding.

Ol' mo was crystal clear about homosexuals, they were to be killed, and inventive ways of doing so were encouraged. I urge anyone and everyone to read these books. AS to moslem assimilation, it doesn't happen for true moslems. Again, they are instructed by the prophet to maintain every part of their "religion" and culture and to work incessantly to impose it on others. They are a very tiny part of our population, now. Check out Germany, France and England to see how that assimilation thing is working. Those problems will be here and in Canada as their populations expand. Is islam a religion ? Only in the very loosest sense., It is an entire theocrartic system that impinges on every facet of life for those who follow it. We in the west are very good at separating and putting things in boxes. We have a division of Church and state whereby Christians, Buddhists, Sikh's, Hindu's, Taoist's, satanists, can worship freely with the understanding that they are under and must abide by ( except in extreme matters of conscience ) the law of city, county, state and the federal government. In the islamic system all are under an authoritarian ruler whereby the "law" is that provided comes from the moon god, to the prophet, who wrote the koran, to the ruler, to his minions and enforced on the people. there is NO mechanism to change or alter this. In Britain, over run by moslems, they are allowed to impose this law on certain legal matters with court standing. In France, with huge area's completely under the control of moslems, sharia law on all matters is openly practiced, the government does not interfere and the police don't go into these areas except under dire circumstances. EVERY true moslem wants this system wherever they are, and they want to impose it on "infidels". i.e. everybody else.

Finally, to the hatred of Evangelical Christian's ( of which I am one). Ignorance and willful denial of the facts here. The OP knows very well what THE NT says about homosexuality, and what every Christian is enjoined to follow, because they have been informed by me. Many others are just venting their spleens out of ignorance and hate. First, Christians are humans. They err, some have wrong views on certain things and have prejudices best to be rid of JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. One of the most rabid haters of homosexuals I have ever come across was an atheist.
So, what does the instruction manual for Christians, the NT say about how they are to be treated ? Outside of the Church ( not the Building but the believers) they are to be treated exactly like everyone else, with kindness and respect. If, in the Church a believer is practicing homosexual activity, he/she are to be counseled with love and advised this behavior is not acceptable in the Church, and to stop the practice. If it continues, they will be removed from the Church rolls. IT ONLY AFFECTS CHURCH MEMBERSHIP. All homosexuals are welcome to any service of the Church, any open meeting or gathering. They cannot be MEMBERS, i.e. on the Church rolls and cannot be involved in the few things reserved for members only. THAT'S IT. I urge you to read it for yourself in the NT, and I URGE you to see what the books those "tolerant" Moslems follow say about homosexuals that all TRUE moslems MUST accept.
I can't speak to what the Koran says.
But it seems that Muslims function best in a secularly governed country.
And this is so for other (all) religions.
 
Those folk you are speaking of were allowed to survive by paying a weekly tax collected by the local imam and passed up the chain.

That's not actually how the Jizya worked, but let's not trouble ourselves with facts.

They generated money, the moslem overlords wanted the money, ergo, lets look the other way. If they didn't pay the tax, their life, if they had one, would be hell.

That was true of pretty much all pre-modern Empires though. All conquered people paid tribute to their overlords be they Muslim, Roman, Persian or Mongol.

Nevertheless, whatever "classical islam" did, it is irrelevant to what the prophet commands. They found a way around it, that's all.

Given that the Sharia developed during the period of 'Classical Islam' your point makes no sense.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!

Fair enough. I expect that is true.
On a web site for fundamental (extremely extremist!)Christians far far away a thread was posted which asked its members to vote whether or not homosexuality should attract the Death Penalty.

An amazing count of 95 members voted for the DP for gays caught in sexual activity together. I was having a boring hour and actually counted 'em!

One or two members suggested that the DP should be administered as slowly and painfully as possible.

I accept that many true Christians might question the faiths of those happy folks who voted thus, but I find that even moderate Christians can make comments such as 'I don't mind attending gay weddings but hate to see the happy couple kissing'
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
That's not actually how the Jizya worked, but let's not trouble ourselves with facts.



That was true of pretty much all pre-modern Empires though. All conquered people paid tribute to their overlords be they Muslim, Roman, Persian or Mongol.



Given that the Sharia developed during the period of 'Classical Islam' your point makes no sense.
Really ? Was sharia based upon the principles of the koran, or not ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I can't speak to what the Koran says.
But it seems that Muslims function best in a secularly governed country.
And this is so for other (all) religions.
Perhaps. Nevertheless, that is not what they want. I refer to France, Germany and Britain as evidence.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd rather colour you incapable of getting irony. Whatever I am, I don't judge, and that --- for anybody who pretends to follow Christ ought to know -- bring me closer to him then most of the rest, who are so busy judging everybody else they barely have time for worship.

No worries.
Based on your previous posting, I assumed you didn't mean it literally, but Poe's Law and all that.
Thanks for clarifying.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
If you were to take two homosexualls and put them all by themselves.

And you take a man and a woman and put them by themselves.

Say in about 50 yrs you go and see who has populated, you find the homosexualls are still just two people, no population there.

And you go to the man and woman, you would find that they have populated.

So what advantage does being a homosexual have ?

So when God said go and populate the earth
Who was God talking to ? Man and woman or two homosexualls ?

So what advantage does a man and a woman have ?
 
Last edited:

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
As a non-Christian I get to define Christianity to be a religion promoting slavery and war and the burning of unbelievers. And no Christian can deny this because they don't get to define Christianity.

Only the one track mind of a conservative could come up with this concept.

Are you saying that as a non-christian you get to define christianity to be a religion ?

But first you have to define who is a true Christian and who is a false Christian ?

Before you can define a Christian. To be anything that you said.

You would have to define between what is a true Christian and what is a false Christian?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
And you go to the man and woman, you would find that they have populated.

So what advantage does being a homosexual have ?
Add a few into the population and you have less likelihood of wars over resources.
I think nonparents, gay or straight, should get benefits. Like tax reductions or something. The bulk of the property taxes I pay go to supporting the public school system, which I have never been enrolled in or enrolled a child in. I also pay a ton of other taxes to support the children of irresponsible breeders with welfare and such.
If you want to make this into an "Us v Them" thing, why don't you stop expecting me to pay the cost of children I didn't choose to have?
Tom
 
Really ? Was sharia based upon the principles of the koran, or not ?

The Quran says almost nothing on homosexuality though.

The legalistic aspects of the sharia are based on Quran, hadith, Roman and Persian law, etc. It started to emerge in the 8th C with jurists like Shafii. This is the period of classical Islam.

There are numerous different approaches to the legalistic aspects of sharia which have come up with many different views on many different issues.

"What the prophet commands" as you put it is not quite as straight forward and clear cut as you think it is.

[Also your tabloid understanding of 'taqiyya' doesn't have much connection to reality]
 

Magus

Active Member
Homosexuality is a sin, because ancients believed Semen was sacred, so 'wasting semen' was considered a sin, this is why Catholics teach that masturbating is a Sin.

Leviticus 20:13 - If a MAN (masculine) , it didn't say anything about Lesbians.

It is sexual superstition.

Jews are extremely superstitious, specially towards Menstruating women, this is the real reason why Muslims cover up it's women in black clothing, the pheromones are lethal.

Quran 2:222 - Leviticus 15:20
Menstruation is a filthy disease

Sexual superstition.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
If you were to take two homosexualls and put them all by themselves.

And you take a man and a woman and put them by themselves.

Say in about 50 yrs you go and see who has populated, you find the homosexualls are still just two people, no population there.

And you go to the man and woman, you would find that they have populated.

So what advantage does being a homosexual have ?

So when God said go and populate the earth
Who was God talking to ? Man and woman or two homosexualls ?

So what advantage does a man and a woman have ?

The trouble is, the world is overpopulated now.
 
Top