American Muslims Are Now More Accepting Of Homosexuality Than White Evangelicals

[ThePainefulTruth]

Well, this thread went downhill with lunacy and hate very fast.

I could fill site's servers to overflowing with images of hateful, screeching, ugly Muslims holding up "Death to America" and pro-Sharia signs, here, in this country that Muslims want to bring under the thumb of Sharia Islam.
Every Muslim is bound to obey this passage:

Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "

And of course, given Taqiyya, Muslims can lie and say it isn't true. They've got all the bases covered, including the evil at home plate.

More garbage.

Very incisive non-responsive. Typical. This thread didn't go downhill, it started down in the swamp, which it turned into a cesspool.

 

[Jumi]

Your statement re American Evangelicals is simply wrong.

Perhaps. I only go by what I've heard in regards to them. I will refrain from making such sweeping statements in the future.

I don't ask anybody I come across what the believe. If someone told me they were an atheist what possible difference would that make to me ? My neighbor and I have been friends for over 15 years, he is an atheist I am a Christian, we don't discuss either subject.

That's good and how it should be. I sometimes hear statements regarding atheists here which make it sound like atheists and some other groups are all bad.

Now, if an unbeliever wanted to join the Church, guess what ? We would'nt let him.

Good. In my country the Evangelical Church used to make everyone born a Christian whether they wanted to or not. People were harassed if they left the State Church and branded communists even if they weren't. There have been some cases where people from the US have sounded like something out of those times here...

 

[Augustus]

Every Muslim is bound to obey this passage:.. And of course, given Taqiyya, Muslims can lie and say it isn't true.

Every Muslim who won't admit they want to kill you is lying?

Good grief some people are stupid.

 

[SomeRandom]

If you were to take two homosexualls and put them all by themselves.

And you take a man and a woman and put them by themselves.

Oh god, not this nonsense

Say in about 50 yrs you go and see who has populated, you find the homosexualls are still just two people, no population there.

That depends on whether or not you put in a female homosexual with a male homosexual.
Lots of gay people have kids. Geez.

And you go to the man and woman, you would find that they have populated.

Well unless they are infertile or can't stand each other.

Also propagation is not the be all and end all. Even in Evolution, a lot of species only have a select portion who breed, not all of them do so. This tactic is especially common in social species. Like meerkats or lions or humans.
And who gives a damn whether or not gay people have kids? The world is severely overpopulated, you should be thanking gay people for not dooming our species faster.

So what advantage does being a homosexual have ?

First of all, they're fabulous. Secondly, if a portion of the population does not procreate, that gives two benefits. One is less of a drain on resources and two, (more so in ancient times when we were tribal) it has the benefit of having sort of "back up" caregivers for the progeny of the group in case the bio parents died or were eaten.

So when God said go and populate the earth
Who was God talking to ? Man and woman or two homosexualls ?

Maybe he was only speaking to heterosexuals and therefore assumed that straight people would focus on that instead of bullying gay people like petty insecure ********.

So what advantage does a man and a woman have ?

Nothing, inherently.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Don't you think the important thing to investigate is if God is accepting such behavior?

Provided that God exists, assuming that some form of punishment would be forthcoming to the individual who breaks His rules, and making the assumption that our "soul" is our individual "self" to the point that our specific instance of consciousness is what experiences the reward/punishment in the afterlife - it would probably be important for an individual to make such investigations for their own introspection about their behavior.

However, what tends to happen is that other believers (like yourself) make such investigations for them, and also seem to simply relish informing them (and everyone else) of the behaviors they have investigated and interpreted as being behaviors that God finds unacceptable.

If I remember correctly, however, this kind of behavior, itself, is not acceptable. "Judge not, lest ye be judged...", and all that. I know what you're going to say, however (it is all extremely predictable) - that you only "judge" under the guise of loving admonishment, and that you are simply concerned for your fellow man's immortal soul. Which is a lie. It is. Even if you have never admitted this to yourself, or will never, it is a lie. Bold-faced and impertinent. And lying is also something that God supposedly does not accept, if I remember correctly.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Provided that God exists, assuming that some form of punishment would be forthcoming to the individual who breaks His rules, and making the assumption that our "soul" is our individual "self" to the point that our specific instance of consciousness is what experiences the reward/punishment in the afterlife - it would probably be important for an individual to make such investigations for their own introspection about their behavior.

However, what tends to happen is that other believers (like yourself) make such investigations for them, and also seem to simply relish informing them (and everyone else) of the behaviors they have investigated and interpreted as being behaviors that God finds unacceptable.

If I remember correctly, however, this kind of behavior, itself, is not acceptable. "Judge not, lest ye be judged...", and all that. I know what you're going to say, however (it is all extremely predictable) - that you only "judge" under the guise of loving admonishment, and that you are simply concerned for your fellow man's immortal soul. Which is a lie. It is. Even if you have never admitted this to yourself, or will never, it is a lie. Bold-faced and impertinent. And lying is also something that God supposedly does not accept, if I remember correctly.

To answer you, first what does it mean, judge not, for in the way you judge, you shall be judge?
If a person judge another person and they judge that person falsely, then that person will be judge for judging that person falsely.
But however if that person is doing what they are revealing then that person who judge them, Judge them rightly.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Provided that God exists, assuming that some form of punishment would be forthcoming to the individual who breaks His rules, and making the assumption that our "soul" is our individual "self" to the point that our specific instance of consciousness is what experiences the reward/punishment in the afterlife - it would probably be important for an individual to make such investigations for their own introspection about their behavior.

However, what tends to happen is that other believers (like yourself) make such investigations for them, and also seem to simply relish informing them (and everyone else) of the behaviors they have investigated and interpreted as being behaviors that God finds unacceptable.

If I remember correctly, however, this kind of behavior, itself, is not acceptable. "Judge not, lest ye be judged...", and all that. I know what you're going to say, however (it is all extremely predictable) - that you only "judge" under the guise of loving admonishment, and that you are simply concerned for your fellow man's immortal soul. Which is a lie. It is. Even if you have never admitted this to yourself, or will never, it is a lie. Bold-faced and impertinent. And lying is also something that God supposedly does not accept, if I remember correctly.

To answer you, The world of scientist. Have no way of knowing what lays in the after life, many scientist refer's to the after life, as the unknown, that's what exactly it is, the unknown to the world of scientist.
For a person who does not believe in God and laying in their death bed, and the unknown looking them in the face. What is next?
Many will say, nothing your just dead, How do they know this for sure, that it's and nothing more ?

Not even the world of scientist have no way of knowing what lays over in the unknown. But these people seem to know more than the world of scientist.

I bet the world of scientist would like to know how these people know. What the world of scientist don't know.but would like to know, what lays over in the unknown?

 

[Grandliseur]

Provided that God exists, assuming that some form of punishment would be forthcoming to the individual who breaks His rules, and making the assumption that our "soul" is our individual "self" to the point that our specific instance of consciousness is what experiences the reward/punishment in the afterlife - it would probably be important for an individual to make such investigations for their own introspection about their behavior.

However, what tends to happen is that other believers (like yourself) make such investigations for them, and also seem to simply relish informing them (and everyone else) of the behaviors they have investigated and interpreted as being behaviors that God finds unacceptable.

If I remember correctly, however, this kind of behavior, itself, is not acceptable. "Judge not, lest ye be judged...", and all that. I know what you're going to say, however (it is all extremely predictable) - that you only "judge" under the guise of loving admonishment, and that you are simply concerned for your fellow man's immortal soul. Which is a lie. It is. Even if you have never admitted this to yourself, or will never, it is a lie. Bold-faced and impertinent. And lying is also something that God supposedly does not accept, if I remember correctly.

The early Christian church, movement, in its scriptures shows that it had teachers and that this was by the will of God. Within this movement, they were told to judge their brothers and sisters' behavior:

1 Corinthians 5:11-13: But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
​

Here it is clearly stated, that God, not Christians, judge those on the outside; though various acts naturally may be condemned as Paul does in the above scripture.

Christ himself spoke harshly against the religious leaders of the time. The quote you mention clearly says, though, for Christians to be careful of how they act, judge, for the judgment they give others will be used against themselves if they are guilty of the same sin. Thus, don't judge a thief for being a thief, if you yourself is a thief - that is the point. Another important point here, which many ignore, is not to be busybodies in other people's lives judging them for their choices in their lives that truly belongs to the individual. Such busybodies are even put in the same categories the wicked.

If then I use scriptures to show what (the believer accepts) God has inspired to be good or wicked, if I am true to the spirit of the text, the harmony of the text - it is then not really I who speak, but God who says this, though I might be the one to find it for the person being taught.

It is unfortunately true that many churches and individuals claim this or that to be a sin, while scripture in no way says this. The person who receives teaching / admonishment / assistance must then be on the lookout to check if indeed what is stated is according to scripture and not just some church teaching.

​

 

[Faithofchristian]

The early Christian church, movement, in its scriptures shows that it had teachers and that this was by the will of God. Within this movement, they were told to judge their brothers and sisters' behavior:

1 Corinthians 5:11-13: But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
​

Here it is clearly stated, that God, not Christians, judge those on the outside; though various acts naturally may be condemned as Paul does in the above scripture.

Christ himself spoke harshly against the religious leaders of the time. The quote you mention clearly says, though, for Christians to be careful of how they act, judge, for the judgment they give others will be used against themselves if they are guilty of the same sin. Thus, don't judge a thief for being a thief, if you yourself is a thief - that is the point. Another important point here, which many ignore, is not to be busybodies in other people's lives judging them for their choices in their lives that truly belongs to the individual. Such busybodies are even put in the same categories the wicked.

If then I use scriptures to show what (the believer accepts) God has inspired to be good or wicked, if I am true to the spirit of the text, the harmony of the text - it is then not really I who speak, but God who says this, though I might be the one to find it for the person being taught.

It is unfortunately true that many churches and individuals claim this or that to be a sin, while scripture in no way says this. The person who receives teaching / admonishment / assistance must then be on the lookout to check if indeed what is stated is according to scripture and not just some church teaching.

​

Christ Jesus also said, judge not by the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
John 7:24.

Therefore if person is doing what they are revealing there is no judgeing them by the appearance or falsely.
If a person that judge another and then is found in doing the same, then that person will be judge by the same judge that he did.

I have the right to judge another if I want to associate myself with them.

Even God told Joshua when they cross over the river Jordan to judge those people on the other side of Jordan.

This means to judge them whether or not if you want to be associated with them.

When I meet a woman, I judge her whether or not I want to be with her.
When I meet someone I judge them whether I want to be in Association with them.
But if I judge a person, to say your going to hell, then I over step the boundaries, only God has that right to judge whether a person is going to hell or not.

There is nothing wrong in judgeing a person whether or not you want to be in Association with them.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

To answer you, first what does it mean, judge not, for in the way you judge, you shall be judge?
If a person judge another person and they judge that person falsely, then that person will be judge for judging that person falsely.
But however if that person is doing what they are revealing then that person who judge them, Judge them rightly.

I don't think it means that at all. The intent seems pretty plain to me. It isn't your place to judge. God supposedly does all the judging necessary. Any judgment you bring is, therefore, you attempting to "play God."

"Judge not, lest ye be judged." - This says, explicitly, DO NOT JUDGE OR YOU WILL FACE JUDGMENT. I am not sure, myself, how it could be made more plain, and I don't even believe it.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The early Christian church, movement, in its scriptures shows that it had teachers and that this was by the will of God. Within this movement, they were told to judge their brothers and sisters' behavior:

1 Corinthians 5:11-13: But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
​

Here it is clearly stated, that God, not Christians, judge those on the outside; though various acts naturally may be condemned as Paul does in the above scripture.

Christ himself spoke harshly against the religious leaders of the time. The quote you mention clearly says, though, for Christians to be careful of how they act, judge, for the judgment they give others will be used against themselves if they are guilty of the same sin. Thus, don't judge a thief for being a thief, if you yourself is a thief - that is the point. Another important point here, which many ignore, is not to be busybodies in other people's lives judging them for their choices in their lives that truly belongs to the individual. Such busybodies are even put in the same categories the wicked.

If then I use scriptures to show what (the believer accepts) God has inspired to be good or wicked, if I am true to the spirit of the text, the harmony of the text - it is then not really I who speak, but God who says this, though I might be the one to find it for the person being taught.

It is unfortunately true that many churches and individuals claim this or that to be a sin, while scripture in no way says this. The person who receives teaching / admonishment / assistance must then be on the lookout to check if indeed what is stated is according to scripture and not just some church teaching.

​

Judging those "on the outside" has been a favorite pastime of many Christians for quite a while now. In fact, it has been so long a tradition it may as well have consideration as an addition to Olympic sport.

Taking the quote in its proper context: "Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you."

It still states, very clearly that it is best to simply not judge - because you will likely be doing it wrong. I have read all the interpretation and attempts to reconcile the use of "proper" judgment - because, of course, Christians really, really, REALLY want to be able to hold onto that favorite pastime of theirs. That desire to, and even NEED to judge - it's really one of the only things they have when dealing with strong non-believers, honestly. But in the end it boils down to a warning that states that judging simply isn't how you keep yourself on the pure path.

Now, as you have quoted, for people "on the inside" - those of your congregation, belief-system, etc., if you have all resolved to call one another out on your sins or unholy behavior, then sure - have at it. Judge one another all you want - I couldn't care much less. In fact, I would love it if all the believers suddenly turned on one another and truthfully told all of the things they see as folly in their fellow believers. That would be hilarious fun. That never happens, of course. Most things are whispered throughout a congregation, unless truly egregious. And that is, of course, because judging on the inside "rocks the boat", makes waves with those you have to see on a regular basis, possibly strains relationships with people who you don't want to see leave your life, and may even convince those people "on the fence" that it just isn't worth it to show up to church anymore. After all - what are you attending church for anyway if not for that sense of community and acceptance that comes with it?

But judging those on the outside? Now that's easy... nothing easier. All those sinners and deniers and infidels. Scum of the Earth, right? They deserve all the words imaginable that can prove their wickedness to them. Even if that comes with a lot of assumptions, exaggeration and possibly even dipping a toe into falsehoods. THAT is the majority of the behavior I have witnessed in the realm of "judgment" from Christians. But, to be honest, it makes me happy that it is that way. So... tell your friends @A Vestigial Mote says to keep up the good work.

 

[Father Heathen]

What is it a race to the bottom?

You don't have to worry about anyone stealing your lead.

 

[Father Heathen]

Maybe you should understand what is good, better and best.

I'm sure he has a much better understanding than you do.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I don't think it means that at all. The intent seems pretty plain to me. It isn't your place to judge. God supposedly does all the judging necessary. Any judgment you bring is, therefore, you attempting to "play God."

"Judge not, lest ye be judged." - This says, explicitly, DO NOT JUDGE OR YOU WILL FACE JUDGMENT. I am not sure, myself, how it could be made more plain, and I don't even believe it.

You just admitted that (your not sure, yourself and you don't even believe it.)
Do you understand how foolish your making yourself look.to say such a thing

You just admitted you don't understand it, but yet your going tell a Christian that is well versed in the bible.

That's like your going to tell a NASA rocket scientist how a rocket works, but don't have any understanding of how it works yourself. Is there something wrong with this picture.


All your trying to do is by using one verse is to try and fortify your agenda with one verse, which will not work with me.

 

[Father Heathen]

Don't you think the important thing to investigate is if God is accepting such behavior?
It is not just this kind of behavior that is forbidden.

I have a 'post-it' note here that's signed by god upon which he states that such behavior is in fact acceptable. You wouldn't defy god's word or call him a liar, would you?

 

[Father Heathen]

If you were to take two homosexualls and put them all by themselves.

And you take a man and a woman and put them by themselves.

Say in about 50 yrs you go and see who has populated, you find the homosexualls are still just two people, no population there.

And you go to the man and woman, you would find that they have populated.

So what advantage does being a homosexual have ?

So when God said go and populate the earth
Who was God talking to ? Man and woman or two homosexualls ?

So what advantage does a man and a woman have ?

Humans aren't fruit flies. There is much more to life than propagation.

There are heterosexual couples who either don't want or can't have children. And homosexual couples who do want children can either adopt or go the surrogate route. Your point is moot.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You just admitted that (your not sure, yourself and you don't even believe it.)
Do you understand how foolish your making yourself look.to say such a thing

You just admitted you don't understand it, but yet your going tell a Christian that is well versed in the bible.

Just because I don't believe in it doesn't mean I don't understand it. Doesn't mean I haven't looked into the counter-arguments or heard them before. It doesn't mean that I haven't been preached at/to by multiple many Christians who have gone around and around in circles trying to defend a God who is apparently completely incapable of defending himself.

Just because I don't believe doesn't mean that I cannot read. I can read... very well in fact. And I can interpret, just as well as any of you "believers" can. In fact, shouldn't a text that is supposed to be THE source of information FOR ALL TO LIVE BY be easy to read and interpret by literally anyone? If not, then it makes that text somewhat inaccessible to the very masses it attempts to appeal to, doesn't it? So, to say I am incapable of drawing my own conclusions from The Bible is to say that the text is esoteric in nature, inaccessible even as it states itself that it is supposed to be accessible. You are claiming it is inaccessible to me... which renders it nearly useless by its own statement of virtue.

All your trying to do is by using one verse is to try and fortify your agenda with one verse, which will not work with me.

Please note that you had to resort to simply not answering any of my points, not making any more excuses, but instead had to appeal to a false sense of my ignorance on the subject. This says a lot to me. What does it say to you?

 

[Father Heathen]

To answer you, The world of scientist. Have no way of knowing what lays in the after life, many scientist refer's to the after life, as the unknown, that's what exactly it is, the unknown to the world of scientist.
For a person who does not believe in God and laying in their death bed, and the unknown looking them in the face. What is next?
Many will say, nothing your just dead, How do they know this for sure, that it's and nothing more ?

Not even the world of scientist have no way of knowing what lays over in the unknown. But these people seem to know more than the world of scientist.

I bet the world of scientist would like to know how these people know. What the world of scientist don't know.but would like to know, what lays over in the unknown?

It's far better to accept that something is currently unknown, than fill the gap with an unsubstantiated presumption.

 

[Rival]

Humans aren't fruit flies. There is much more to life than propagation.

Whilst I agree, I would just like to make a point.

What more? Humans have invariably asked this question since we have been around to ask it and we have, as a unified whole, come with no concrete answer. However, we do see at least four things around us that every other creature does: Eat, sleep, reproduce, die. These things are concrete apparent absolutes that define living creatures and how we survive. Everything apart from this is superfluous. So we cling to these concrete things and say 'As long as these things are being done, we're okay.' So when something or someone comes along that totally shatters this we feel also shattered. That the very things which make life, well life, have been rent asunder. Saying 'I'm gay I can't biologically reproduce' is thus tantamount to saying 'Nah, I'm sleepless, I never need sleep.' We also still have the same reaction when a person says he or she (especially she) doesn't want to have kids. I highly doubt this is just a cultural thing; it seems to be a deeply embedded evolutionary psychological belief.

 

[shmogie]

Fair enough. I expect that is true.
On a web site for fundamental (extremely extremist!)Christians far far away a thread was posted which asked its members to vote whether or not homosexuality should attract the Death Penalty.

An amazing count of 95 members voted for the DP for gays caught in sexual activity together. I was having a boring hour and actually counted 'em!

One or two members suggested that the DP should be administered as slowly and painfully as possible.

I accept that many true Christians might question the faiths of those happy folks who voted thus, but I find that even moderate Christians can make comments such as 'I don't mind attending gay weddings but hate to see the happy couple kissing'

Well, what is wrong with the last sentence ? I wouldn't care for it either. Does that make me a hater ? Or, how about this, I wouldn't go to a homosexual wedding, does that make me a hater ? Please CITE the website you were talking about. Just like the the extremists in the homosexual community (the gaystopo) there are certain alt. right groups who try and screen their looniness and hate by posing ad Christians. I would like to see that website.