An Issue Of Valuing The Lives Of Others

[ImmortalFlame]

maybe I am misunderstanding your point.

Are all Palestinians are combatants? Of course not. If they all were, there wouldn’t be people leaving the cities.

Are you saying all Palestinians are combatants?

So you really didn't read my post properly.

Go back and read my actual argument, which was specifically a response to the logic "Palestinians shouldn't be regarded as non-combatants" because they "voted for Hamas" or some such. My point is that this logic doesn't just justify the IDF, but implicitly justifies Hamas as well.

That's the point. It's bad logic.

 

[Revoltingest]

So far in this thread, the faithful...
Have challenged the definitions of terms like
"war crimes" to deflect fromtheir existence.
Have ignored the disproportionate death, injury,
& destruction of Palestinians & their home.
Have defended war crimes with the tired "Israel
has the right to defend itself".
Have ignored or denied the brutal oppression of
Palestinians as a source of Hamas's power.
Have given Hamas, but not Israel responsibility to
pursue peace & justice.
Have given weight to grisly hands-on murders by
Hamas, but ignored Israel's inflicting death by distant
method to achieve far greater carnage of innocents.

How else can this be explained except by Christians
& Jews of USA & Israel viewing Palestinians as less
human?

 

[Kenny]

So you really didn't read my post properly.

Go back and read my actual argument, which was specifically a response to the logic "Palestinians shouldn't be regarded as non-combatants" because they "voted for Hamas" or some such. My point is that this logic doesn't just justify the IDF, but implicitly justifies Hamas as well.

That's the point. It's bad logic.

Then my sincerest apologies.

 

[Colt]

So far in this thread, the faithful...
Have challenged the definitions of terms like
"war crimes" to deflect fromtheir existence.
Have ignored the disproportionate death, injury,
& destruction of Palestinians & their home.
Have defended war crimes with the tired "Israel
has the right to defend itself".
Have ignored or denied the brutal oppression of
Palestinians as a source of Hamas's power.
Have given Hamas, but not Israel responsibility to
pursue peace & justice.
Have given weight to grisly hands-on murders by
Hamas, but ignored Israel's inflicting death by distant
method to achieve far greater carnage of innocents.

How else can this be explained except by Christians
& Jews of USA & Israel viewing Palestinians as less
human?

Disproportionate response? A proportionate response would be sneak into Gaza, find a music festival, randomly murder as many young people as you could, rape women next to the dead bodies of their friends, kill and decapitate babies, the elderly, eat their meals prepared in the homes that you snuck into to kill anyone there, kidnap men, women, children and senior citizens to hold indefinitely as hostages, randomly fire rockets into Gaza to kill anyone possible!!!!!

Proportionate responses don't win wars! Hamas launched a war against a superior foe, retreated back into their supportive population. They will find that the tacit support by sanctimonious armchair pacifists isn't going to win this one! IMOP

 

[SkepticThinker]

What I find especially exposing about this particular argument is that, if we're using this logic consistently, then we cannot even condemn what Hamas did because "civilians" as a category basically don't exist.

It's very telling when people use this kind of selective morality. It's almost as if these people will do anything to remove the humanity of a particular group, rather than holding genuine, principled positions. The needless slaughter of Israeli civilians is a crime worthy of violent retribution - the needless slaughter of Palestinian civilians is... "What civilians? They don't count."

Excellent point I was actually just thinking to myself.

 

[Revoltingest]

Disproportionate response? A proportionate response would be sneak into Gaza, find a music festival, randomly murder as many young people as you could, rape women next to the dead bodies of their friends, kill and decapitate babies, the elderly, eat their meals prepared in the homes that you snuck into to kill anyone there, kidnap men, women, children and senior citizens to hold indefinitely as hostages, randomly fire rockets into Gaza to kill anyone possible!!!!!

Proportionate responses don't win wars! Hamas launched a war against a superior foe, retreated back into their supportive population. They will find that the tacit support by sanctimonious armchair pacifists isn't going to win this one! IMOP

How convenient of you to address proportionality
without any numbers. The faithful continue to
provide evidence for the thread's theme.
How many relative dead & injured do you think
there are, ie, Palestinian vs Israeli?

 

[Colt]

How convenient of you to address proportionality
without any numbers. The faithful continue to
prove the thread's claim.
How many relative dead & injured do you think
there are, ie, Palestinian vs Israeli?

Apparently many more have died in Gaza. Their blood is on the hands of Hamas who knew full well the consequences of the savage attack on Israeli citizens!

 

[Revoltingest]

Apparently many more have died in Gaza. Their blood is on the hands of Hamas who knew full well the consequences of the savage attack on Israeli citizens!

Israel....
"Hamas made us commit the war crimes!"
"We had no choice. We're powerless to do otherwise."

 

[Mock Turtle]

Israel....
"Hamas made us commit the war crimes!"
"We had no choice. We're powerless to do otherwise."

Hamas: Israel made us do this.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Hamas: Israel made us do this.

I agree, this is a poor excuse to kill civilians.

Hence why Israel using it is also bad.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hamas: Israel made us do this.

There's more truth to that than Israel's claim.
Israel is the overwhelming regional power,
backed up by thousands of nuclear weapons
& delivery systems controlled by an obedient
USA.
Israeli apologists who look at life in Israel, & life
in Gaza for the Palestinians, & see that there is
no brutal oppression of Muslims are blind.
This dooms them to violent conflict.

Some here have even claimed that it's Palestinians
who oppress Israel. To reciprocate with the common
claim, "you can't reason with those people (Israel)".

 

[Mock Turtle]

There's more truth to that than Israel's claim.
Israel is the overwhelming regional power,
backed up by thousands of nuclear weapons
& delivery systems controlled by an obedient
USA.
Israeli apologists who look at life in Israel, & life
in Gaza for the Palestinians, & see that there is
no brutal oppression of Muslims are blind.
This dooms them to violent conflict.

Some here have even claimed that it's Palestinians
who oppress Israel. To reciprocate with the common
claim, "you can't reason with those people (Israel)".

As in - Israel made us do this even though we knew the result would be death for so many Palestinians and probably a lot more than all the Israelis we killed? After all, these civilians are of no use to us fighters. Lovely bunch of people.

 

[Revoltingest]

As in - Israel made us do this even though we knew the result would be death for so many Palestinians and probably a lot more than all the Israelis we killed? After all, these civilians are of no use to us fighters. Lovely bunch of people.

I don't hear Hamas claiming Israel "made" them
commit the attacks. However, Israel's brutal
response smacks of believing no choice.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't hear Hamas claiming Israel "made" them
commit the attacks. However, Israel's brutal
response smacks of believing no choice.

But this is what people have been saying as to lessening the (cruel and barbaric) actions that Hamas took, by pointing to the past and all past oppressions, and as if Hamas had no knowledge of what would most probably happen. Especially so when they built an underground network apparently so as to avoid punishment, and hence laying the civilians open to likely Israeli retaliation. But then the world reaction will cover this of course - the loss of innocent lives. So why aren't more Palestinians angry at Hamas - being used so cynically by them - rather than simply seeing Israel as being the wicked actors?

 

[Revoltingest]

But this is what people have been saying as to lessening the (cruel and barbaric) actions that Hamas took, by pointing to the past and all past oppressions, and as if Hamas had no knowledge of what would most probably happen.

I would say that Hamas was inspired to start this war
because of Israel's brutal oppression of Palestinians.
What other people say about Hamas being foced
to act this way is immaterial to my position.

Especially so when they built an underground network apparently so as to avoid punishment, and hence laying the civilians open to likely Israeli retaliation. But then the world reaction will cover this of course - the loss of innocent lives. So why aren't more Palestinians angry at Hamas - being used so cynically by them - rather than simply seeing Israel as being the wicked actors?

I can't speak to the number of
Palestinians angry at Hamas.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I would say that Hamas was inspired to start this war
because of Israel's brutal oppression of Palestinians.
What other people say about Hamas being foced
to act this way is immaterial to my position.

I can't speak to the number of
Palestinians angry at Hamas.

I suppose it's not likely we will get any honest views from those suffering in Gaza at the moment, and understandably so. The Israelis certainly seem to be getting the worst press, given the greater showing of innocent civilians being injured and killed, especially children, in the news, even on any media trying to present an unbiased coverage. Few after all ever want to witness such.

 

[Kenny]

But this is what people have been saying as to lessening the (cruel and barbaric) actions that Hamas took, by pointing to the past and all past oppressions, and as if Hamas had no knowledge of what would most probably happen. Especially so when they built an underground network apparently so as to avoid punishment, and hence laying the civilians open to likely Israeli retaliation. But then the world reaction will cover this of course - the loss of innocent lives. So why aren't more Palestinians angry at Hamas - being used so cynically by them - rather than simply seeing Israel as being the wicked actors?

Very logical and well said. And good question too.

 

[Revoltingest]

I suppose it's not likely we will get any honest views from those suffering in Gaza at the moment, and understandably so.

Why? I don't doubt their honesty.
But coverage of the victims is spotty.
So we're not getting views from the
many victims in Gaza.

The Israelis certainly seem to be getting the worst press, given the greater showing of innocent civilians being injured and killed, especially children, in the news, even on any media trying to present an unbiased coverage. Few after all ever want to witness such.

It all depends upon which news sources one consumes.
But generally, there is a crack in the carefully crafted
facade of Israel's PR machine.

 

[Kenny]

How else can this be explained except by Christians
& Jews of USA & Israel viewing Palestinians as less
human?

are you talking about the Jihadist that came and murdered innocent people or are you talking in general.

Although, either way, it definitely looks biased in as much as I haven’t read one sentence of Christians and Jews of the USA saying they view Palestinians as less than human.

Do you have a link?

 

[Revoltingest]

are you talking about the Jihadist that came and murdered innocent people or are you talking in general.

I speak of Israel's brutal reaction, rife with war crimes.
Such is not justified by Hamas's criminal attack.

Although, either way, it definitely looks biased in as much as I haven’t read one sentence of Christians and Jews of the USA saying they view Palestinians as less than human.

Do you have a link?

People don't proclaim they don't value Muslims lives
as much Christians & Jews. Tis their conduct that speaks
volumes about inhumanity towards lesser people, ie, Muslims.

Gaza Death Toll Rises to More Than 9,000, Local Authorities Say

The Hamas-controlled Gaza health authorities said more than 9,000 people have been killed in the enclave since Israel began its bombing campaign, most of them women and children. They don’t distinguish between militants and civilians. Israeli airstrikes this week on the densely-populated Jabalia ne

www.wsj.com