An Issue Of Valuing The Lives Of Others

[Estro Felino]

Watch what politicians do.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit.

If you affirm that Netanyahu wants to harm the civilians who are victims of Hamas, bring me the evidence, dear mister.
The onus is on you.

Which terrorists...Israel or Hamas?

Hamas, ISIS, Hezbollah,
all terrorists are equal in my eyes.

 

[InChrist]

That is the common straw mantra that ignores Israeli terrorism.
I see no one arguing that Israel shouldn't defend itself.
Of course it should.
The argument here in this thread is against Israel oppressing,
torturing, group punishing, de-housing, & generally treating
Palestinians as sub-human. This appears to come from Judaism
& Christianity, which we can observe by specious pro-vengeance
arguments from adherents.
The best defense for Israel is to treat Palestinians with justice,
not oppress them, kill them, torture them, bomb them, &
deprive hundreds of thousands of food, water, fuel, & medicine.
Make Hamas un-necessary.

So are you saying that if Israel made everything just and wonderful for the Palestinians in Gaza, then no more terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens would occur and the desire to eliminate Israel as a nation would end?

 

[Revoltingest]

That was a stupid video; quite a derogatory caricature.

The performers are Jews.
It's their truth. And I see it.

I’m not so naive as to think Israel always does right and never wrong. But Israel is not by any means a terrorist state. I think you need to get your information and understanding of the Israel-Palestinian situation from more accurate and reliable sources. Amnesty International and others spouting the same lies are definitely corrupt, slanted sources.

Our differences aren't about my lacking info.
We have different values regarding morality
& human life, ie, whose is worthy vs unworthy.

“Now, most serious, sober observers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including some who have served in high ranking positions in the Palestinian Authority, candidly acknowledge that the predicament that Israel and the Palestinians find themselves in would not exist but for poor decision-making by the Palestinian leadership over the past 80 years. The familiar and indisputable but oh-so-tiresome facts are that the Palestinian leadership has been repeatedly offered, and just as repeatedly rejected, a Palestinian state in return for simple peace. These offers would have meant no Israeli settlements, no occupation and no basis whatsoever for cries of "apartheid”.

Amnesty International, however, is neither sober nor serious when it comes to Israel, a point which it illustrated once again this week by releasing a report with the measured, grounded title, "Israel's Apartheid Against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crimes Against Humanity."

“Amnesty points out that the security fence and checkpoints that Israel began constructing in July 2002 have caused hardship and humiliation for Palestinians. They surely have. But it requires only a small helping of honesty to acknowledge that the reason that Israel was obliged to do this was because for 20 months, beginning in September 2020 and continuing through 2004, its civilians were subjected to a bombing campaign that blew 1,100 Israelis to pieces and maimed 5,000 more. That is the rough equivalent of 40,000 Americans blown to pieces and 175,000 Americans maimed on American streets. Was this construction of a security fence to prevent Israelis from being shredded really a "crime against humanity?"

When Hamas used Gaza as a launching pad to fire thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians in 2009, 2012, 2014 and 2021 and Israel chose to try to stop the rockets rather than wait for Hamas to run out of them, was this really a "crime against humanity?"

Amnesty's Lies About Israel Only Hurt Its Own Credibility

The kind of over-the-top proclamations by agenda-driven organizations like Amnesty do less damage to Israel's reputation than to their own.

www.newsweek.com

Although, our perspectives differ, I have no doubt that you have values, sincerely care, and have concerns for what is right.
I think there is hope, though, for real understanding. Please watch this short video by an Arab- Israeli…

Nothin in any country's history justifies how
Israel has treated, & now treats Palestinians.

I notice that your concern is how much Israel has
suffered from Muslim violence. But you don't give
attention to how Muslims have suffered under
Israel's oppression. This reinforces my theme, ie,
that Christians & Jews (as groups) do not value
Muslim lives. Their property is easily taken.
Their lives are easily destroyed. Because they're
not Jews or Christians. This is evil.

 

[Revoltingest]

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit.

No habla jibber jabber.

If you affirm that Netanyahu wants to harm the civilians who are victims of Hamas, bring me the evidence, dear mister.
The onus is on you.

I observe what he does, & infer intent.
I don't expect to sway a fundie Christian apologist
to see that Israel is doing great wrong. But I do
hope that some more open minded folk will find
their humanity, & urge governments to favor
justice over vengeance & death.

 

[Revoltingest]

So are you saying that if Israel made everything just and wonderful for the Palestinians in Gaza, then no more terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens would occur and the desire to eliminate Israel as a nation would end?

That's a pretty extreme characterization of what I envision.
Instead, think of a process, likely a long one...heading in
that direction, with the result being relative peace & justice.
I don't believe in perfection.
But we can achieve improvement, & perhaps even good enuf.

 

[Revoltingest]

Quid pro quo.
When you show solidarity and empathy....

I don't do empathy.
I simply favor justice for people.

for what was done to the Arab civilians of Libya during Obama's...

This thread isn't about them.
Don't continually pollute mine with your Obama rants.
Stay on topic.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't do empathy.
I simply favor justice for people.

I am for justice and I empathize with all Arab nations equally..

I don't consider certain Arab nations bad, and other Arab nations good. They are all good.

So it's self- evident that I will always defend the Palestinian State; through diplomatic means.
Because there is the UN, there is the EU, there are countless international entities that can help this nation through peace and diplomacy.

But if they want to solve their issues with warlike and primitive means, I cannot help them. Sorry.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would agree that "entirely responsible" (italicizing mine) would be an inaccurate statement....

Is it?
How could Israel's long & brutal oppression of Palestinians
not lead to violent resistance? If not by this group at this
time in this manner, that powder keg will inevitably explode.

Of course, I don't say the innocent Israeli victims deserve
to be attacked. But their government set the stage for it.

Another poster (anti-Palestinan) suggested that no Palestinian
is a non-combatant because they're all responsible for what
Hamas (their government) does. It appears that they all should
die.
Applying this rationale to Israelis, by their vote, they too are
responsible for their government's acts, & are therefore combatants.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am for justice and I empathize with all Arab nations equally..

I don't consider certain Arab nations bad, and other Arab nations good. They are all good.

So it's self- evident that I will always defend the Palestinian State; through diplomatic means.
Because there is the UN, there is the EU, there are countless international entities that can help this nation through peace and diplomacy.

But if they want to solve their issues with warlike and primitive means, I cannot help them. Sorry.

You empathize with them, but if you fail to hold
Israel accountable for oppression & war crimes,
then your empathy isn't worth a bucket of warm spit.
All you do is enable Isreal's brutality, & feel sorry
for the victims....if you really do. No one interviews
the dead on TV news.

 

[InChrist]

The performers are Jews.
It's their truth. And I see it.


Our differences aren't about my lacking info.
We have different values regarding morality
& human life, ie, whose is worthy vs unworthy.


Nothin in any country's history justifies how
Israel has treated, & now treats Palestinians.

I notice that your concern is how much Israel has
suffered from Muslim violence. But you don't give
attention to how Muslims have suffered under
Israel's oppression. This reinforces my theme, ie,
that Christians & Jews (as groups) do not value
Muslim lives. Their property is easily taken.
Their lives are easily destroyed. Because they're
not Jews or Christians. This is evil.

Actually, I do value and also have much concern for the Muslims and the oppression they suffer under in Gaza. I think it’s terrible. Unlike you, though, I see Hamas and the extremists (not Israel) as those doing the oppressing, as well as indoctrinating hatred against Israel into the Palestinian population from childhood on up. I am only focusing more on the terrorism Israel has endured for decades because you seem to disregard it.

 

[InChrist]

That's a pretty extreme characterization of what I envision.
Instead, think of a process, likely a long one...heading in
that direction, with the result being relative peace & justice.
I don't believe in perfection.
But we can achieve improvement, & perhaps even good enuf.

I can certainly agree… it will likely be a long process.

 

[Estro Felino]

You empathize with them, but if you fail to hold
Israel accountable for oppression & war crimes,
then your empathy isn't worth a bucket of warm spit.
All you do is enable Isreal's brutality, & feel sorry
for the victims....if you really do. No one interviews
the dead on TV news.

Israel is a Mediterranean country which has lots in common with my culture, which is Mediterranean.

We are speaking of a nation made up of millions of people. It's not a monolith.
The great majority of them live normal lives, love peace, diplomacy, dialogue, tolerance, patience, empathy.

The problem here is how you handle terrorism. Terrorism in not only in Israel. It's present in any Mediterranean country, mostly clandestinely.


If you enlighten me on how Israel should handle terrorism and religious fundamentalism, well, I can learn from you.
Thank you.

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually, I do value and also have much concern for the Muslims and the oppression they suffer under in Gaza. I think it’s terrible.

It's interesting...I've heard that concern from so many,
including many Jews I know. But while they express
deep sympathy for the Palestinians' suffering & death,
they lack criticism of Israel for perpetrating it.
This smacks of tacit approval, ie, Israel can brutalize,
bomb, murder, torture, etc because it's acceptable,
albeit hard to stomach awareness of it.

Unlike you, though, I see Hamas and the extremists (not Israel) as those doing the oppressing....

Astounding.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you enlighten me on how Israel should handle terrorism and religious fundamentalism, well, I can learn from you.
Thank you.

1) Understand what inspires terrorism, hostility, & any revolt.
2) Seek to fix the wrong that inspires hostility.

Fundamentalism is a harder nut to crack.
We can only encourage such people to consider
justice & tolerance. And perhaps some day they'll
have an epiphany, & become wonderful heathens.

 

[Estro Felino]

1) Understand what inspires terrorism, hostility, & any revolt.

I perfectly agree.
But terrorism has nothing to do with Israel.
In fact terrorists kill and destroy fellow Arabs because of religious fundamentalism and ideology.
Like in Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc...

2) Seek to fix the wrong that inspires hostility.

I perfectly agree.

 

[Revoltingest]

I perfectly agree.
But terrorism has nothing to do with Israel.

Israel commits terrorism...along with war crimes, & other wrongs.
So it has very much to do with that country.

In fact terrorists kill and destroy fellow Arabs....

No Arab, Muslim, or Palestinian should be
brutalized because of who they are.
In-fighting among Muslims does not
justify what Israel is doing.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's after midnite here.
I'm ignoring y'all for awhile.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Is it?
How could Israel's long & brutal oppression of Palestinians
not lead to violent resistance? If not by this group at this
time in this manner, that powder keg will inevitably explode.

Of course, I don't say the innocent Israeli victims deserve
to be attacked. But their government set the stage for it.

I strongly agree with the overarching point that oppression breeds a cycle of violence and radicalism, but I'm unsure about the "entirely" part because, while Israel's policies have allowed Hamas to gain ground and been the main driver of strife and unrest in the region (Israel and Palestine), there are so many factors contributing to the conflict that I'm cautious about using a categorically blanket description like "entirely."

In many contexts, I believe it generally suffices to point out that Israel's policies have by far been the main source of unrest and the main factor in causing radicalism to spread and grow more fervent, especially given its significantly more powerful and advantaged position in the conflict and on the global stage.

Another poster (anti-Palestinan) suggested that no Palestinian
is a non-combatant because they're all responsible for what
Hamas (their government) does. It appears that they all should
die.

I found that argument extremely objectionable and harmful and responded to it earlier in this thread.

Applying this rationale to Israelis, by their vote, they too are
responsible for their government's acts, & are therefore combatants.

I pointed out that such an argument would indeed go both ways if one accepted it, which I don't (for multiple reasons that would be off topic in this thread).

This is the post where I addressed that suggestion:

There hasn't been any election in almost two decades, and about half of Gaza's population are children, not to mention the adults who weren't old enough to vote when the last election took place. "They voted for Hamas" is factually incorrect for the majority of people in Gaza right now.

Claiming that it is a "stretch" to view Palestinians as noncombatants strikes me as extremely harmful when thousands of Palestinian civilians have been killed in the bombings so far and are experiencing a humanitarian disaster due to the bombardment and the blockade that has been depriving them of necessities such as water, electricity, and fuel. Many hospitals are experiencing collapse while sick and injured people are in urgent need of care.

Israel's policies and actions including decades-long illegal occupation, encroachment on Palestinian territories, failure to sufficiently address settler violence, excessive detention of Palestinian civilians, and military activities that kill disproportionate numbers of Palestinian civilians are part and parcel of why radicalism has festered and given Hamas more foothold in Gaza. A sustained status quo of oppression has historically always been a major factor in enabling radicalism to spread and gain influence whether in this conflict or others, but Israel is now using brute force instead of trying to address any of the factors that allowed this situation to occur in the first place.

Would you have also said it would be a "stretch" to say that Americans who voted for George W. Bush were still noncombatants? What about Israelis who voted for Netanyahu?

My answer is that both of the above groups were and are noncombatants unless they take part in military operations.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ukraine and Moldova are not that wealthy...quite the opposite....and I can promise you their birth rates are disastrous. Very low.

I don't think that I will ever find it logical to hear of bad birth rates with the implication that they are low.

I assumed you were being satirical in the previous post. I truly did.

 

[Revoltingest]

I strongly agree with the overarching point that oppression breeds a cycle of violence and radicalism, but I'm unsure about the "entirely" part because, while Israel's policies have allowed Hamas to gain ground and been the main driver of strife and unrest in the region (Israel and Palestine), there are so many factors contributing to the conflict that I'm cautious about using a categorically blanket description like "entirely."

In many contexts, I believe it generally suffices to point out that Israel's policies have by far been the main source of unrest and the main factor in causing radicalism to spread and grow more fervent, especially given its significantly more powerful and advantaged position in the conflict and on the global stage.

I understand your view, & find it reasonable.
Mine is analogous to driving drunk.....
Eventually, the driver will cause an accident.
There will be incidental other factors, eg, rain,
fatigue, darkness, poorly lit road. These other
factors always lurk, & create risk. But to drive
drunk is a decision to accept the inevitable
consequence of carnage.
The driver is 100% responsible.