An Issue Of Valuing The Lives Of Others

[Revoltingest]

Beginning to wonder if there is an anti-Jewish sentiment here IMO

Typical ad hominem attack from Israel's fervent
apologists. Can't use reason & evidence? Just
play the worn out perfunctory anti-semite card.
Should I say you hate Muslims?
Nah.
Such tactics are dishonest.

Willful blindness can be questioned here

You just broke my irony meter.

And yet you, who is alive and not dead and you, refuse to acknowledge the distinction while making a distinction.

The problem is that you feign significance
as a tool of distraction from Israel's massive
Palestinian death count.

Strawman that refuses to address my point

Israel's intentional bombing of civilians is
a "strawman"? Well, that was unexpected,
even from you.

Opinion

It's the opinion of the Israeli source cited.
It's also evident from Israel's bombing
campaign.

Your appeal to not view facts is obvious and thus your interpretation is quit flawed IMV.

Dang it!
It's now beyond repair.
You owe me a new one.

 

[Revoltingest]

I expected a larger difference, personally.

Then again, that is just a number. It probably fails to convey many deeper and subtler differences.

It was the best explanation I could find.

 

[LuisDantas]

Beginning to wonder if there is an anti-Jewish sentiment here IMO

We should be careful not to confuse any criticism with "anti-" sentiment. There is a real danger of neglecting to listen to necessary criticism due to those labels.

Just as an illustration, I have seen repeated accusations in politics that certain people and press would be "anti-Worker's Party" here in Brazil. That is sort of empty, since a political party should better expect to be criticized and opposed by others who simply prefer other parties.

 

[Revoltingest]

I suspect our values are similar...

Not even close.

One thing I will say however is that I doubt you could accurately steelman my position, but I think I could steelman yours.

In English?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No true Scotsman, eh.

He who sacrifices to any god, other than to the Lord alone, shall be utterly destroyed. Exodus 22:20

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I suspect our values are similar

Why do you keep saying this when it's obviously not true?

 

[Revoltingest]

We should be careful not to confuse any criticism with "anti-" sentiment. There is a real danger of neglecting to listen to necessary criticism due to those labels.

 

[Orbit]

New development, seen just now on Twitter/X:
Phone and internet communication has been cut off in Gaza (yes Israel controls that too). This is what we know: Fierce aerial and artillery bombardment is ongoing, most fiercely on locations in N. Gaza. Paramedics & first responders are now blind, people can't ask for help.

 

[Quetzal]

Beginning to wonder if there is an anti-Jewish sentiment here IMO

Ugh this sucks. I have a personal pet peeve when someone claims anti-semitism when criticism is suggested against Israel. Being Jewish does not make one immune to feedback. Be better.

 

[Quetzal]

New development, seen just now on Twitter/X:
Phone and internet communication has been cut off in Gaza (yes Israel controls that too). This is what we know: Fierce aerial and artillery bombardment is ongoing, most fiercely on locations in N. Gaza. Paramedics & first responders are now blind, people can't ask for help.

That's awful.

 

[Kenny]

Typical ad hominem attack from Israel's fervent
apologists. Can't use reason & evidence? Just
play the worn out perfunctory anti-semite card.
Should I say you hate Muslims?
Nah.
Such tactics are dishonest.

That is exactly what I am talking about… I listed the difference between two views as presented by you (logically) and basically you ignored it all

You just broke my irony meter.

You must be looking in the mirror.

The problem is that you feign significance
as a tool of distraction from Israel's massive
Palestinian death count.

Hardly. I have presented various points that you continue to ignore. Let use, as you said, logic.

If you see Hamas setting up a missile launch in your neighborhood… what are the three options that you would use?

1) Stop them at whatever cost because you are jeopardizing innocent lives
2) Join the effort
3) Leave your neighborhood because you know at response is about to happen.

If you choose the first two, whose fault is is thet someone dies? That being said, any innocent life lost is a tragedy.

If you had 100 billion dollars to help… which of the three options would you make (or four if you want to add one)

1) build miles and miles of tunnels, buy armaments and store them there, train soldiers and then attack Israel,
2) buld bunkers to protect the innocent lives like Israel does.
3) Actually use it for infrastructure and business building to help the people

Hamas did #1

Who is the aggressor?

Israel's intentional bombing of civilians is
a "strawman"? Well, that was unexpected,
even from you.

Please give me a site.

It's the opinion of the Israeli source cited.
It's also evident from Israel's bombing
campaign.

You will have to give me a direct quote and not from left leaning Guardian… context is everything and quote mining is all to common

Dang it!
It's now beyond repair.
You owe me a new one.

You have to fix what you broke.

Since you have proven in two occasions that your position has been one sided and bias, I am all too willing to correct your misinformation.

 

[Kenny]

We should be careful not to confuse any criticism with "anti-" sentiment. There is a real danger of neglecting to listen to necessary criticism due to those labels.

I agree… but when the poster, twice, has given a one sided viewpoint with no recognition of what the other party has done… it does being to give it a hew.

 

[Kenny]

Ugh this sucks. I have a personal pet peeve when someone claims anti-semitism when criticism is suggested against Israel. Being Jewish does not make one immune to feedback. Be better.

As I said to another poster… when a person, twice, has given all the fault to one side and never in our interaction acknowledged the wrong on the other side, it does give it a hew.

But, yes, in and of itself just to label something antisemitic because they are criticized would be wrong.

I agree that many times Israel has been over oppressive on the West Bank… but this war has nothing to do with that.

 

[Lyndon]

I've observed over the course of my life that, not only is this issue and the status of Israel important to those living in the region, but it has also held a great deal of importance in the eyes of the U.S. government and many among the general population. I don't think there's any region or conflict in the world which has had more attention from Americans than this one - and it's been going on for longer than I've been alive.

I would consider this to be significant, since there are/were so many other conflicts and instances of unrest around the world which Americans are barely aware of. They're often treated as minor blips by the media. But this region is viewed differently, as it's considered very important from the standpoint of our religious culture.

I can sort of see both sides to this, although when looking at it, much of it seems to be rooted in a perception that both sides believe that the other side "started it first." It's a war that started generations ago, and ever since, it's been a continuous back-and-forth, eye for an eye. "You did this to us, so now we're going to do it to you." Sure, they've had periodic peace talks, giving people hope that finally there will be peace in the Middle East. But it never lasts. There's always something brewing.

On a practical note, I can observe the sharp differences in living standards, seeing who's living in squalor and slums and who's living in more comfortable situations. If it's a conflict rooted in economic disparities, I can understand it on that basis. But even that doesn't seem to explain it. Is it some ongoing revanchist struggle that won't ever end? Or is it purely a religious struggle?

I've known some Americans who view Israel more in biblical and prophetic terms, believing that America must support Israel no matter what, because it's God's will. So, that also appears to be a big driver behind the religious right's support.

It's the religious aspects which make it all the more complicated, at least in terms of public perceptions.

Its not an eye for an eye, its an eye for 22 eyes

 

[Orbit]

As I said to another poster… when a person, twice, has given all the fault to one side and never in our interaction acknowledged the wrong on the other side, it does give it a hew.

But, yes, in and of itself just to label something antisemitic because they are criticized would be wrong.

I agree that many times Israel has been over oppressive on the West Bank… but this war has nothing to do with that.

If it has "nothing to do with the West Bank", why have the IDF, and IDF-backed settlers killed at least 100 Palestinians in the West Bank since Oct. 7? Why has Israel imprisoned more than 6,000 Palestinian work permit holders working in Israel (legally) because the current hostilities?
There are some inconvenient facts there that you need to look into.

Yes, Hamas is bad. Hamas-led terrorist attacks are bad, but you have to ask yourself where the situation comes from, and it's a long history. And it doesn't excuse the murder of Palestinian children and other civilians now. Saying that is not "anti-semitic"; that's a tactic to silence criticism of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians. I support civilians on both sides of the conflict, and the cycle of violence needs to stop. Now.

As War Rages in Gaza, Violence Surges in the West Bank

At least 95 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli soldiers and armed settlers since Oct. 7.

time.com

 

[Revoltingest]

That is exactly what I am talking about… I listed the difference between two views as presented by you (logically) and basically you ignored it all

I didn't ignore what you said.
I read it, considered it, & then
responded.
As for the rest of your post,
I read it, considered it, &
decided I've nothing to add.
It's an impasse thingie due to
different values.

 

[Kenny]

I didn't ignore what you said.
I read it, considered it, & then
responded.
As for the rest of your post,
I read it, considered it, &
decided I've nothing to add.
It's an impasse thingie due to
different values.

Hope you find your way through the maze

 

[Revoltingest]

Hope you find your way through the maze

No maze at all.

 

[Father Heathen]

Honestly I do not endorse the choice of including "Christians" in the title.

So I would kindly suggest the OP to edit the title.

Christians believe in a God than loves any religion.
If you are a Christian and do not like a religious group, God cannot call you a Christian.

Yeah, we're not going to pretend that Christians aren't saying these things.

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Orbit]

This is very interesting. Survey research on what Palestinians think of Hamas:

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas

Before the War, Gaza’s Leaders Were Deeply Unpopular—but an Israeli Crackdown Could Change That

reader.foreignaffairs.com