An Issue Of Valuing The Lives Of Others

[Estro Felino]

No Arab, Muslim, or Palestinian should be
brutalized because of who they are.
In-fighting among Muslims does not
justify what Israel is doing.

I assure you that Palestinians are the first victims of Hamas.
We are speaking of fundamentalist countries which are incredibly rich (thanks to the petrodollar) that fund either directly or indirectly radicalism, fundamentalism, and so terrorism which derives from those ideologies.


So behind the scenes, I only see incredibly rich people who because of their horrific ideology victimize both Israelis and Palestinians.
And not only all the Arab nations.

 

[Revoltingest]

I assure you that Palestinians are the first victims of Hamas.

No, they were second.
Israelis were first.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, they were second.
Israelis were first.

I have never seen the evidence that Israelis oppress Arabs, given that Israel is filled with Arabs.
This narrative doesn't add up.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have never seen the evidence that Israelis oppress Arabs, given that Israel is filled with Arabs.
This narrative doesn't add up.

Tis hard to see things
one doesn't want to see.

 

[Kenny]

In the news, our leaders express concern for Israelis
killed & kidnapped, but are largely silent regarding
the far greater number of Palestinians killed by
Israel's massive bombing campaign, & embargo
on water, energy, & freedom to move...killing &
maiming thousands of non-combatants whose
only crime is being where Israel keeps them.

I think this is a very shallow view and filled with lack of understanding. IMV

To make a statement like this is to close one’s eyes to:
the difference between kidnapped and those who are put in jail;
the difference between murder and kiliing;
the difference between purposeful massive bombing on innocent people to the point that they kill their own people at a hospital
and pinpoint bombing against military targets;
and the deafening silence on the binding moms and children together so tightly
that when they were burned while being filmed to send to people
the chest to chest of the two were melded together!

and so much more.

 

[Estro Felino]

Tis hard to see things
one doesn't want to see.

I would like to have a sane debate with you.
About Pan-Arabism, about what happened after the sixties, about the reasons why Palestinians are used like human shields by those fundamentalist countries.

But you expect people to say "you're right", without civilly debating with the interlocutor.

If you want, I can say it to you. You're right on the Palestinians.

But that's not what a debate is.

I say this to you with all the utmost respect possible.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think this is a very shallow view and filled with lack of understanding. IMV

Ain't we a pair. I think you're dumb too.
Christian Kool-Aid will do that to a fella.

Now, let's consider how you're wrong.....

To make a statement like this is to close one’s eyes to:
the difference between kidnapped and those who are put in jail;.

I've not addressed those differences because they're
not significant relative to the larger issues.

the difference between murder and kiliing;

The dead see no distinction.

the difference between purposeful massive bombs on innocent people

Massive bombing campaigns are the most purposeful of all.
They require extensive planning & financing. The effects
are intentional.

‘We’re focused on maximum damage’: ground offensive into Gaza seems imminent

Surrounded by evidence of heavy fighting and with air raid sirens still sounding, Road 232 is the new frontline between Israel and the enclave

www.theguardian.com

Excerpted....
....IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari made the startling admission that “hundreds of tons of bombs” had already been dropped on the tiny strip, adding that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”.

and pinpoint bombing against military targets;

Israel intends a high civilian death count,
and a massive refugee exodus...and bombing
them as the try to flee.

and the deafening silence on the binding moms and children together so tightly
that when they were burned while being filmed to send to people
the chest to chest of the two were melded together!

Your appeal to emotion (but only for Israelis)
distracts from the far higher Israel vs Hamas
kill ratios. Israel is the king of killing civilians.
Your heart bleeds for Israeli victims. But
you've no mention of the greater number
of Palestinian children killed by Israel.

This is a problem with reasoning from empathy,
ie, it's highly directional, thus becoming a tool
of evil towards those deemed unworthy.

and so much more.

I can hardly wait.

 

[Revoltingest]

I asked you to try to see things, and I would like to have a sane debate with you.

You presume that our difference lies in my
not seeing something. Such hubris.

 

[LuisDantas]

Some questions that I wish I knew the answers for.

1. Why exactly are the residents of Gaza overall so young?

2. Where are their parents? Are they mostly dead? Living outside of Gaza? Some combination of both?

3. Which sort of family structures and arrangements are predominant in Gaza? Which efforts, if any, exist there to change or improve those?

4. How often and under which conditions were them allowed, expected or encouraged to leave Gaza (temporarily or otherwise) before the October attacks?

5. What kind of access do (and did) foreigners have to Gaza?

6. What would a representative sample of the thought of everyday Gaza residents be like, regarding their current and desired situations on family, political representation, nationality, personal freedoms, economic perspectives, education and work opportunities?

I think that this last question is crucial for some sort of workable path ahead to be built. I don't think it is too bold to say that Gaza is at least a bit confusing for many of us. Is it a gigantic prison? A refugee camp of sorts? An oppressed, dismantled or collapsed nation? A confused, dysfunctional community where extremists with promises of answers, purpose or just revenge against perceived oppressors receive far more attention than they should?

Additional questions:

7. What is the current economic situation of Gaza? What do they trade internally, what do they import, what do they export? Are their creative and productive efforts mostly aimed internally, or do they have significant ties with other communities?

8. Who has the authority to act as governance there, and to what extent? What are their main goals, obstacles and challenges? Which tools, if any, exist for the larger community to communicate with them and realign those goals periodically?

9. What is known (if anything) about the psychological toll and sociological effects of their rather unusual situation and the results on their hability to eventually adapt to some better environment and circunstances?

To what extent do random Gaza residents even understand what it is like to live under other circunstances? How capable of dealing with those kinds of changes are they at this time? It is my understanding that most of them literally never lived outside Gaza.

I can see that many people may feel incensed against Israel for presumably allowing or even forcing the Gaza residents to be in that situation. I do however think that the reality is quite a bit more complex and nuanced.

If nothing else, we have to take into account that just opening the gates and encouraging the people there to leave and settle elsewhere isn't going to solve very much and will create quite a few hard, difficult matters to be solved in turn.

Those people will need some sort of infrastructure, jobs, education, social organization. Things that largely do not come ready-made and that I sincerely expect that most Gaza residents won't even be currently prepared to deal with even if freely given them.

We do not expect random 19-year old people to be well equipped to build and maintain whole communities. It would be irresponsible to just assume that somehow Gaza residents are much wiser and more capable than most other people of comparable age and life experience.

True solutions would be a scary huge project, necessary as they are. I fear that they are also rather unconfortable for the predominant expectations about so-called "self-determination" and "nations".

 

[Revoltingest]

Some questions that I wish I knew the answers for.

1. Why exactly are the residents of Gaza overall so young?
2. Where are their parents? Are they mostly dead? Living outside of Gaza? Some combination of both?

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict

Excerpted....
Well, unfortunately, so many adults have been killed in Gaza. For the last 16 years, a blockade that's been imposed on Gaza by Israel and enforced by Egypt and Israel controls everything that goes into and out of the Gaza Strip. So food, medicine, all of that is controlled by Israel. And the Gaza Strip lacks very basic health needs for the people living there. So as a result of Israel's blockade and bombings of Gaza, life expectancy for Palestinians there is a full 10 years less than it is for Israelis living just a few miles away.

 

[Estro Felino]

You presume that our difference lies in my
not seeing something. Such hubris.

Whenever there is a trial, the lawyer of the counterpart doesn't say "you're wrong", period.
He says: you're wrong, because...X

 

[Revoltingest]

Whenever there is a trial, the lawyer of the counterpart doesn't say "you're wrong", period.
He says: you're wrong, because...X

I mean, if a lawyer just said that, he would lose any judicial debate.

Non sequitur.

 

[Estro Felino]

Non sequitur.

I mostly agree with you, but I would also like to debate with you about the reasons why Palestinians have been so victimized.

 

[Revoltingest]

I mostly agree with you, but I would also debate with you about the reasons why Palestinians have been so victimized.

We have 6 pages of discussion in this thread alone.

 

[Stevicus]

I strongly agree with the overarching point that oppression breeds a cycle of violence and radicalism, but I'm unsure about the "entirely" part because, while Israel's policies have allowed Hamas to gain ground and been the main driver of strife and unrest in the region (Israel and Palestine), there are so many factors contributing to the conflict that I'm cautious about using a categorically blanket description like "entirely."

In many contexts, I believe it generally suffices to point out that Israel's policies have by far been the main source of unrest and the main factor in causing radicalism to spread and grow more fervent, especially given its significantly more powerful and advantaged position in the conflict and on the global stage.

I've observed over the course of my life that, not only is this issue and the status of Israel important to those living in the region, but it has also held a great deal of importance in the eyes of the U.S. government and many among the general population. I don't think there's any region or conflict in the world which has had more attention from Americans than this one - and it's been going on for longer than I've been alive.

I would consider this to be significant, since there are/were so many other conflicts and instances of unrest around the world which Americans are barely aware of. They're often treated as minor blips by the media. But this region is viewed differently, as it's considered very important from the standpoint of our religious culture.

I can sort of see both sides to this, although when looking at it, much of it seems to be rooted in a perception that both sides believe that the other side "started it first." It's a war that started generations ago, and ever since, it's been a continuous back-and-forth, eye for an eye. "You did this to us, so now we're going to do it to you." Sure, they've had periodic peace talks, giving people hope that finally there will be peace in the Middle East. But it never lasts. There's always something brewing.

On a practical note, I can observe the sharp differences in living standards, seeing who's living in squalor and slums and who's living in more comfortable situations. If it's a conflict rooted in economic disparities, I can understand it on that basis. But even that doesn't seem to explain it. Is it some ongoing revanchist struggle that won't ever end? Or is it purely a religious struggle?

I've known some Americans who view Israel more in biblical and prophetic terms, believing that America must support Israel no matter what, because it's God's will. So, that also appears to be a big driver behind the religious right's support.

It's the religious aspects which make it all the more complicated, at least in terms of public perceptions.

 

[Kenny]

Ain't we a pair. I think you're dumb too.
Christian Kool-Aid will do that to a fella.

Now, let's consider how you're wrong.....

Beginning to wonder if there is an anti-Jewish sentiment here IMO

I've not addressed those differences because they're
not significant relative to the larger issues.

Willful blindness can be questioned here

The dead see no distinction.

And yet you, who is alive and not dead and you, refuse to acknowledge the distinction while making a distinction.

Massive bombing campaigns are the most purposeful of all.
They require extensive planning & financing. The effects
are intentional.

‘We’re focused on maximum damage’: ground offensive into Gaza seems imminent

Surrounded by evidence of heavy fighting and with air raid sirens still sounding, Road 232 is the new frontline between Israel and the enclave

www.theguardian.com

Excerpted....
....IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari made the startling admission that “hundreds of tons of bombs” had already been dropped on the tiny strip, adding that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”.

Strawman that refuses to address my point

Israel intends a high civilian death count,
and a massive refugee exodus...and bombing
them as the try to flee.

Opinion

Your appeal to emotion (but only for Israelis)
distracts from the far higher Israel vs Hamas
kill ratios. Israel is the king of killing civilians.
Your heart bleeds for Israeli victims. But
you've no mention of the greater number
of Palestinian children killed by Israel.

This is a problem with reasoning from empathy,
ie, it's highly directional, thus becoming a tool
of evil towards those deemed unworthy.

Your appeal to not view facts is obvious and thus your interpretation is quit flawed IMV.

 

[icehorse]

You & I have very different values & beliefs.

I suspect our values are similar, but clearly we have different beliefs on this topic.

One thing I will say however is that I doubt you could accurately steelman my position, but I think I could steelman yours. So - this topic aside - that might be worth meditating on.

See at the next shin-dig.

 

[icehorse]

Since I'm talking about Israel's policies, I'm using the last 75 years (especially the period since Israel's expansion of its borders after 1967) as the historical range, the time since Israel announced its independence and became a full-fledged state.

One can't "give up" what wasn't theirs in the first place. Israel "gave up" Gaza but kept it blockaded and ensured it remained an open-air prison, not to mention that illegal settlements and violence against Palestinians have both been problems in the West Bank.

For the sake of discussion, if we use your starting time - after the 1967 war - then Gaza and the WB were Israel's, correct?

Maybe you mean a different starting time?

So you had already been aware of the above, yet you still claimed, in the context of the current bombing of Gaza and the thousands of Palestinian deaths, that saying Palestinians were civilians would be a "stretch." This leads me to believe that you've already made your mind up about them regardless of evidence to the contrary and are trying to justify not seeing them as civilians, an argument that contributes to depicting the bombings as more palatable or acceptable.

I have made my points, and I don't see much use in pursuing this further given the above and the explicit anti-Muslim sentiments I'm observing in your arguments about this

This situation is complex, not reducible to your sound bite conclusions, and your understanding of my positions is inaccurate.

 

[LuisDantas]

There are belief matters involved in the conflict, but I would think that for most Israelis that is not a decisive factor. Having their land constantly targeted by Arab (and Iranian) missiles to the point that their very existence depends on the Iron Dome has to be much more significant, I would think. Besides, Israel isn't nearly as skewed towards Judaism as Gaza and pretty much every other territory around them is skewed towards Islam - and Judaism is very unlike Islam in that respect to begin with.

It may or may not be that a significant number of Gaza residents are Muslim fanatics; it would not surprise me any. The Brazilian "favelas" have significant presence of fervorous Christian drug traffickers that exert armed control over their territories (no, I am neither mistyping nor kidding) and I have no reason to expect Gaza to be any better in that respect.

I definitely expect that both sides have the hardest of times letting go of their sorrow over dead relatives and friends due to nationalist and antizionist violence. That can't help at all, and it goes back to 1948 and even earlier. Here I have a very hard time mustering sympathy for Gaza, I fear.

But if there is a single and decisive factor, it may very well be economic situations and overall quality of life. We know that Gaza, at the very least, is a very crowded region with lack of autonomy of electricity and water. Israel, meanwhile, takes considerable and apparently well deserved pride on what it has built on the region. The politics are perhaps even more aggravating than elsewhere and the tension of constant threat from neighbors can't be pleasant. But overall the quality of life is simply far better than elsewhere in the Middle East (or so I would think from where I stand, anyway). It is very hard to be rational and reasonable when there are few hopes of personal stability or advancement in this world. It does not help any when there are preachers around promising a better life in the next world if you only accept a few very violent actions towards the "infidel enemies".

 

[LuisDantas]

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict

Excerpted....
Well, unfortunately, so many adults have been killed in Gaza. For the last 16 years, a blockade that's been imposed on Gaza by Israel and enforced by Egypt and Israel controls everything that goes into and out of the Gaza Strip. So food, medicine, all of that is controlled by Israel. And the Gaza Strip lacks very basic health needs for the people living there. So as a result of Israel's blockade and bombings of Gaza, life expectancy for Palestinians there is a full 10 years less than it is for Israelis living just a few miles away.

I expected a larger difference, personally.

Then again, that is just a number. It probably fails to convey many deeper and subtler differences.