another **** page.

[DallasApple]

How about putting the onus on the people who are calling them sluts? I don't see that as being unreasonable to expect.

NO ..that is "freedom of speech"...

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Just so everyone knows, I identify as a feminist, meaning someone who believes in equal rights for women.

I have no doubts of your position as a feminist, FH. Just to be clear.

I'm saying committing certain actions within certain environments and situations (such as among a drunken crowd of dubious characters) elicits typical reactions which, while not excusable, are to be expected. No, degrading attitudes aren't acceptable, and yes we as a society should work to change things, but considering the current state of things placing faith in the lowest common denominator is folly. Also, these comments, as horrid as they were, weren't made to the women directly. They were made on a site where lecherous misogynists jabber among themselves. A site were people make the choice to visit. There is a big difference between that and actual harassment, stalking, assault, etc. No one is actually being oppressed by their immature, ignorant babble. Their words, as nasty and vile as they are, are only as "harmful" as those who decide to seek out and read their commentary allow them to be. Words, unless in the form of threat or harassment, are not something people need to be "safe" from. While their commentary is indeed very asinine and contemptible, it doesn't actually violate anyone's rights.
As someone who loves freedom, I prefer education over censorship as a means of combating ignorance and bigotry.
Illegally obtaining pictures, however, is a violation of privacy and a legitimate concern.

I do see what you're saying. I just disagree. I don't think that inexcusable misogynistic behavior ought to be ignored or applauded or understood or tip toed around or respected. If they have a right to express themselves as misogynists, I have a right to express an opinion about it saying they're propagating ****-shaming behavior.

I believe in freedom too. The freedom should not just be granted to them, though, but to someone like me who wants to speak up about it. AND even if a woman willfully engaged in submitting pics of her to a site like this, I think she should have the freedom to speak her mind about the comments and her pictures like everybody else.

But regarding the pictures that were submitted by the girls themselves, It's probably safe to assume that they self identify as "festival sluts" and hunger for that sort of attention if they're feeding it.

Also, there is probably a line between genuine misogyny, and what might be immature, tonque-in-cheek sexual comments made in the same spirit of what the pictures depict themselves.

How would you define that line? Is it distinct? Or is it a fine line that is easily overstepped?

How would you define a genuinely misogynistic site? And is there a safe place for women to lift their tops up just like your example of a person walking around with his money hanging out? He's not safe in the ghetto, but perhaps he's safe in another neighborhood. What about her?

Also, is there a male equivalent of this FB site that we're talking about right now?

 

[Father Heathen]

The thing is, I don't think it's "illegal" to raid women's facebook pages for pictures of them goofing around with their friends, taken by their friends, in what they probably assumed was a generally friendly and open environment, in a sexually provocative way. The fact that Facebook hasn't taken down any of the photos that were reported except one or two shows they're totally OK with that.

Sure, I could say that they could have protected their photos from being harvested by misogynists by establishing better privacy settings on facebook, and maybe they're kind of silly for not doing that, but I don't think it's reasonable to say we (women) should all just assume we're inevitably going to be called sluts and hoes, smelly and dirty, disease infested, walking dick holes, yada yada if we share a photo of us with our top off, or in a skimpy summer outfit, or whatever.

The whole point of sexual liberation is to gain the freedom for women to be openly sexually expressive beings without being attacked, disparaged or harassed. You have to admit, that's a good deal for everybody. Women who want to wear a bikini top to a summer festival AND men who want to see women in bikini tops.

Knuckle-dragging, backward idiots like the fans of Festival Sluts kind of ruin it for everybody. The more women have to worry about being harassed for showing some skin, the less skin there will be for heterosexual men to look at in public.

I'm not prepared to say "that's just how it is, suck it up". If that's how it is, we might as well all move to Afghanistan and wear a bag over our heads, since the arguments for that kind of attire are the same as your arguments above: Men are pigs and can't look at a scantily-dressed woman without verbally or physically assaulting her.

The situation is constantly evolving. A hundred years ago, it was a massive scandal for a woman to wear pants instead of a full length skirt. Where will we be a hundred years from now? Do you want to be on the forward edge of progress, or stuck in the past?

It obviously has far more to do with mere attire or appearance, but sexually provocative behavior done with the purpose of eliciting attention and reactions that are in the same spirit of her display, and within that spirit things aren't always reserved and respectful. And like I've said before, if you desire the respect of others you must first respect yourself, and if you treat your own body like an object, others will do the same.
And we're not talking about harassment, assault, etc. which violates people's rights. We're talking what's likely just a bunch of teenage dorks making juvenile remarks among themselves. If you want progress, let's go with education and information, rather than censorship and knee-jerk witch hunts.

 

[fallingblood]

O.K lets make the women's rights movement about abused boys..How men are raped by women.How boys are specifically targeted by women as sex objects and are castrated from birth to ensure no fun in sex...how boys hand over fist are sold into sex slavery for women to enjoy//..I think it makes sense..to draw attention away from what happens mostly to girls to point out "sometimes it happens to boys"..So boys don't feel left out.

That is the problem. I do affirm myself as a feminist. But more importantly, I seem myself as a human being that is interested in the rights of everyone.

Men are also sold into sex slavery. Others, such as in Afghanistan, are paraded out to dance, abused, and then raped.

Men are raped by women, as well as by men, quite often. However, it often does not go reported, even at a lesser rate then women who are raped, because nothing is done. There is a long believed myth that men can't be raped by women, as they are having sex so they must like it. And within war, and warring nations, many men are raped as a form of terrorism.

To say that it doesn't often happen, or only "sometimes happen," is not a justification to belittle those experiences. This is exactly why there is a problem for men who do get raped.

There is clear discrimination...a guy is a guy...a girl is a ****..

That is BS. The discrimination here is being done by you. What, a guy is never called a ****, or a man whore? Sure they are. Or they get raped and no one cares because after all, men are just horny beings who enjoy any sex they can get.

There is no reason to belittle others, and make justifications for minimizing the effects that happen to any human. It shouldn't be an issue about who has it worse, or who gets raped more. That is simply ridiculous. And as long as there is such a mentality, things won't get better.

 

[Father Heathen]

there a male equivalent of this FB site that we're talking about right now?

A quick google search brought up this: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sexy-boys/116742935065971, although a more in depth search might turn up some a little more comparable.

 

[fallingblood]

AND all over the world women need to recognize the sexual abuses against males.And how unfair it is ..that women would talk about male against female abuse???Its completely unfair.Women need to stand up for men too.!

Do you know what, women should be standing up for men who are being abused. Just like men need to stand up for women who are being abused. if both don't stand up for each other, then there is a problem.

No one is complaining that women are talking about women being abused. What I'm addressing are the belittling remarks you are making about men who are abused. That simply is not called for. The division you are trying to make only adds to the problem; it solves nothing.

 

[Father Heathen]

I do..So ...Lets see who wins out.

Reason tends tends to "win out" over emotion.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

A quick google search brought up this: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sexy-boys/116742935065971, although a more in depth search might turn up some a little more comparable.

Is "sexy boys" insulting like "sluts" are?

Are the comments degrading and misandrist?

 

[Father Heathen]

Yeah..and you WILL be arrested if you threaten to bomb a school..even if you have no bomb.And charged .

As far as I'm aware no one was making threats on that silly site, so how is that even comparable?

 

[Father Heathen]

Is "sexy boys" insulting like "sluts" are?

Are the comments degrading and misandrist?

Didn't really do a thorough review, lol. But if it would make people feel better, they're just as free to make such an equivalent for the sake of fairness.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I thought of an equivalent site for males that I believe supports my argument.

I read somewhere there is a youtube channel or a FB site in Russia that publicly outs gay men, shames them, and encourages violence against them when they are outed. These are men who are led to believe that nothing will happen to them, yet people (including homosexual men) are well aware of the homophobia and current culture that is dangerous for them.

So, these men and older teen boys are shamed, ridiculed, and told that they only brought it on themselves.

Are the homosexual males only bellyaching if they made a mistake by trusting people who are out to ridicule them and out them on youtube? Should they understand that if they didn't want to be ridiculed, then they shouldn't put themselves out there? Just trying to live their lives and enjoy their sexuality? Or do they deserve the ridicule as a freedom of speech and understand that homophobia is a default standard, and that challenging homophobia is considered a witch hunt?

 

[Father Heathen]

No I did not.

To be frank and honest, your reading comprehension does seem to be rather lacking at times.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Didn't really do a thorough review, lol. But if it would make people feel better, they're just as free to make such an equivalent for the sake of fairness.

I understand. I think my point is that it doesn't happen in this culture. I haven't come across a site where men are shamed for showing off their bodies. If you say women are free to be misandrists and comment the same way, and the men who are shamed shouldn't complain about it, then your position is consistent.

 

[Father Heathen]

I thought of an equivalent site for males that I believe supports my argument.

I read somewhere there is a youtube channel or a FB site in Russia that publicly outs gay men, shames them, and encourages violence against them when they are outed. These are men who are led to believe that nothing will happen to them, yet people (including homosexual men) are well aware of the homophobia and current culture that is dangerous for them.

So, these men and older teen boys are shamed, ridiculed, and told that they only brought it on themselves.

Are the homosexual males only bellyaching if they made a mistake by trusting people who are out to ridicule them and out them on youtube? Should they understand that if they didn't want to be ridiculed, then they shouldn't put themselves out there? Just trying to live their lives and enjoy their sexuality? Or do they deserve the ridicule as a freedom of speech and understand that homophobia is a default standard, and that challenging homophobia is considered a witch hunt?

Is it really an equivalent if they're directly harassing people, inciting violence against them, and other things with real life consequences? Also, were these gay men openly performing sexual acts in a crowded, public area while smiling for the camera?

 

[Father Heathen]

I understand. I think my point is that it doesn't happen in this culture. I haven't come across a site where men are shamed for showing off their bodies. If you say women are free to be misandrists and comment the same way, and the men who are shamed shouldn't complain about it, then your position is consistent.

If the guys were flashing their genitals at the camera, then no, they really shouldn't complain about it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Is it really an equivalent if they're directly harassing people, inciting violence against them, and other things with real life consequences? Also, were these gay men openly performing sexual acts in a crowded, public area while smiling for the camera?

I find the equivalency in that they are wishing to celebrate their sexuality in a culture that wishes they wouldn't. If a woman is flipping her top up, I don't find it an invitation to degrade her or shame her. Much the same, that if a gay man is seeking to engage in sex with a willing male partner, I don't find it an invitation to out him and shame him in front of millions.

 

[Father Heathen]

YOU don't get to decide whats appropriate.

And you most certainly don't.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If the guys were flashing their genitals at the camera, then no, they really shouldn't complain about it.

The women are not flashing their genitals at the camera. A few pictures have shown cleavage and exposed breasts with pasties on them, but I didn't see any genitalia.

 

[dawny0826]

The comparison is where FH regarded letting his money hang out in a dangerous place like a ghetto as foolish. Now, I don't know how many people actually go out of their way to tell somebody how much of a rotten fool they are when they actually do that. Do you? And would a victim of such a crime as theft be deserving of that ridicule? AND should that victim refrain from "bellyaching" about being shamed after being attacked?

Unless the women or girls on the Facebook page are underrage or were forced to take those photographs, I don't see how they've been victimized. The FestivalSluts page is one where people are asked to contribute their photographs. The majority of photographs that I've seen on the page are women who appear to be POSING for photographs.

We have the right as Americans to comment and express ourselves. Unless something was being said directly to these women to infringe upon their personal rights or to oppress them in a way that could be demonstrated and proven...I fail to see how they can claim victimization or where there is a "shame" factor involved. And if there is any element of shame, does that not fall on the individual woman? You can't really be shamed unless you are ASHAMED of your actions, can you?

I find it odd that you believe women aren't entitled to a safe place.

How are you defining safe place?

If you are defining safe place as a place free from harassment, physical, emotional and sexual abuse, defamation of character, opression and infringment of personal rights...I agree with you.

If you're defining safe place as a place where women are free from opposing opinions and possibly offensive viewpoints, even hurtful comments from others...I can't agree with you. This is an integral piece of American freedom, regardless as to how ugly freedom of speech may come packaged.

I believe women deserve respect as much as men deserve respect regardless of unconventional behavior.

I'm sorry, Mystic. No person is entitled to unconditional acceptance and adoration. I think some feminists set their expectations entirely too high.

Unconventional behavior does not have to be acceptable to other people and if it offends or disrespects others, others do not have to reciprocate respect simply BECAUSE she happens to be a woman.

Perhaps if you offered a male equivalent of the FB page, I might see the validity in your argument. As of now, it seems your argument validates ****-shaming and telling women to shut up about it. I may be wrong, but I'm willing to see how you can suggest that women should just stop bellyaching about being called a **** if they "act" like a **** that doesn't qualify as ****-shaming.

To be honest, I haven't seen many men behave like that in public places. I think that women perhaps unintentionally through their exhibitionist type actions -the brand where you do what you want - forget the consequences - undermine the steps made towards EQUALITY.
.
And you're wrong. I'm not validating ****-shaming. I'm simply stating that not every comment made is a misogynist comment and I don't hold sympathy for every woman who is labeled a "****".

Intention, circumstance and context does need to be considered.

How about putting the onus on the people who are calling them sluts? I don't see that as being unreasonable to expect.

Then, you don't feel that these people are entitled to their freedom of speech because you find their opinions disagreeable.

I don't disagree that the concept of the website is deplorable. However, it takes more than one person to contribute. Are women contributing? YES, they are.

Shared responsibility. But, you'll deny this.

Of course not. I don't think the FB page is simply having a negative opinion, however. I think it goes far beyond that and resorts to objectionable behaviors (e.g. "sl#ts get cut" pics and such).

Perhaps you can clarify how your position doesn't include the mindset of "Well if she didn't want to get attacked, then she shouldn't have put herself out there asking for it." I'm having difficulty seeing otherwise.

How is anyone getting attacked, Heather? How is this any different than comments below a YouTube video or on a vlog? People say deplorable things all of the time about people from all walks of life.

Any illegal activity should be addressed.

Outside that, what are we looking at?

 

[Father Heathen]

I find the equivalency in that they are wishing to celebrate their sexuality in a culture that wishes they wouldn't. If a woman is flipping her top up, I don't find it an invitation to degrade her or shame her. Much the same, that if a gay man is seeking to engage in sex with a willing male partner, I don't find it an invitation to out him and shame him in front of millions.

Did the gay men go out of their way be provocative and seek attention?

There is a difference between having sought after attention turn out to be disrespectful and demeaning, and intrusive and invasive actions that actually impact people's personal, private lives and their rights and freedoms.