Antichrist Discussions ~ FFH ~

[nutshell]

Okay nutshell i see you ran off, i hope you come back and respond. i'm going home for the day, have a good night.

I see you're still online - couldn't make it home?

 

[Mike182]

opcorn: :sw:

 

[nutshell]

opcorn: :sw:

:slap:
nuts / mad

 

[FFH]

I'm glad i'm not alone in this world in regards to being extremely sensitive to the spirit.

Which teaches us the truth of all things...

The spirit "whispers," as thoughts in the mind, the truth of all things to those who look for it, and then we must listen and wait for the answer.

The spirit, as does prophecy, whispers to human minds and hearts the mysteries and prophecies of scriptures, now being fulfilled in this world and in these last days

 

[FFH]

Okay, back on subject...

There are many good people and pracitces in the Catholic church, my wife having been one of those former members..

There are also many good end time prophecies which come from Catholic members as well as other Christian organizations..

The body of Christ is diverse/varied.

"If there is anything. virtuous, lovely or of good report or or praiseworthy, we seek after these things".
~LDS 13th Articles of Faith ~

Good can come from varied Christian sources, including Catholicism...

We meet God half way with our various religions and worship services...

Some day the various structures, consisting of Christ's church, will be done away with, and only the pure Church of Christ, the Lamb of God, will emerge/exist.

James 1: 27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and the widows in their affiliation, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Good and evil exists in ALL Christian organizations/religions, we need not be hung up about it, but only be aware of it in all of it's various good and evil forms.

There are many "hidden" anitchrists within ALL Christian organizations as well as in and throughout the world.

Beware of men and women trying to emulate Christ, but their hearts are far from him...

Many prophesy in the name of Christ but they may secretly be living a double life...most of us are guilty of this, including myself, we are all sinners saved by grace and works... but some are not sorry for their sins and of these we need to be aware..

We can discern the true followers of Christ by the works they perform and the RESULTS of those works.

Matthew 7: 16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

I'd say the idea of the Christ/anti-Christ is just another reminder of where the bible truly came from- A book written by those who incorporated/absorbed a portion of the dualistic ideas the Persian Zoroastrians brought when they dominated their lands, the evolution of religions, beliefs, technologies etc. history shows us again and again that this always happens when cultures meet whether through warfare, trade, immigration or something else.

As far as who and where I'm sure one will find the Devil if they really want to find him somewhere, in something, or in someone(s) We've already had many stated being so from Nero, to Napoleon, to Ozzy Osbourne and Glen Benton (I think Elvis was on the list at one point) and everyone else before and in between. I always thought the saying " Evil triumphs when good men do nothing" by Edmund Burke should always be tempered by Nietzsche's quote "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster". But hey, the devil is good for business, keeps em coming back.

 

[FFH]

As far as who and where I'm sure one will find the Devil if they really want to find him somewhere, in something, or in someone(s) We've already had many stated being so from Nero, to Napoleon, to Ozzy Osbourne and Glen Benton (I think Elvis was on the list at one point)

Yeah, I read something the other day that also alluded to this fact..

He, at one point, thought of himself as a "Messiah" of sorts, more influential than the "king of kings". John Lennon also said something like, we (the Beatles) are more influential than Jesus Christ.

Elvis (Evils ???) just move the "L"

The Religion of Elvis Presley

It seems as if Elvis was all over the place, as far as religion goes...

"Elvis did not believe the Bible in any traditional sense... Elvis constructed "a personalised religion out of what he'd read of Hinduism, Judaism, numerology, theosophy, mind control, positive thinking and Christianity"

"Elvis was sometimes called the evangelist by those who hung around him, and he called them his disciples; but the message he preached contained "strange permutations of Christian dogma" (Stairway to Heaven, p. 56). Elvis believed, for example, that Jesus slept with his female followers. Elvis even had messianic concepts of himself as the savior of mankind in the early 1970s. He read the Bible aloud at times and even conducted some strange "Bible studies," but he had no spiritual discernment and made up his own wild-eyed interpretations of biblical passages. His ex-wife, Priscilla, eventually joined the Church of Scientology, as did his daughter, Lisa Marie, and her two children."

Many types of antichrists will come in the last days, deceiving even the very elect if possible.....
__________________

 

[madhatter85]

It's a figure of speech.

What's the "85" in "madhatter85" - the year you were born?

Yes,

Read D&C Section 132 if you want to know more about plural marriages and poligamy. Abraham, and a ton of other listed there were granted plural wives and concubines because of thier obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, but none (including early church history) were allowed additional wives if his current one(s) did not all agree on it. if he had 10 wives, all of them had to agree with thier husband on takign on an 11th wife, if one said no, it was not so.

On the blacks holding the priesthood, it was in ensign articles throught old times, that blacks are decended from Cain and we don't understand what happened in the war in heaven, but some speculate that there were "fence sitters" who didn't care what they did as long as they got a body. and there has been specualtion that the decendants of cain were the ones to recieve bodies from his lineage. Again, it doesn't really pertain to our salvation seeing as black people even though they coudl not obtain the priesthood, all the temple ordinances, salvation, exaltation, and other coveneants were never denied them.

And the endowment i am not going to talk about because it is a sacred temple ordinance and i am not going to simplify it and have someone take it out of context. and it really doesn't matter, the doctrine is still the same, the coveneant did not change it has always remained the same, that is the important part.

 

[madhatter85]

Many types of antichrists will come in the last days, deceiving even the very elect if possible.....

Satan's plan is to confuse you, lead you astray, and to innevidably be miserable and curse god for your existence. if he can get you down that path he has won.

He is miserable and want everyone else to be the same, he can never gain a body or become exalted. and he knows.

there is no "battle" Satan has nowhere near the same power god, christ, or even we as mortals do.

It is promised that we will ever be tempted beyond our capability to resist. and that is true.

Satan knows he lost, and will never win, which is why he tries to lead people astray.

In the bible and other scriptures, he even appears to people, claims to be Christ, and tells people to worship him.

He will tell you a thousand truths to get you to believe one lie. even when i was a kid i thought of a great way to lie..... to always tellt he truth, if you always tell the truth, people will believe you, and when you have that chance to lie and make it count and you do, people still believe you. That is a proven fact.

Even the Elect, the educated, the powerful, especially them, they are the ones who put thier trust in the arm of the flesh, and they trust no more in the lord, and believe only in themselves, and that is when satan has power over them.

There is nothing wrong with being educated, the more knowledge you have the better off you are with anything in your life. As members of the church we are encouraged to get as much education as possible.

 

[DeepShadow]

You know just as well as i do the truth. You can pray abotu whatever you want and find out the truth for yourself. Too bad the RCC discourages asking God what is true, look it up. they claim thier pope to be "infalliable." Questioning the pope is basically an act of Heresy to them. you should look at what's going on around you before defending what you don't know about.

The pope is only considered to be infallible when he's speaking ex cathedra. That's pretty close to what we believe about our prophet. I really think you should avoid spouting baseless comments and then follow them up with a recommendation for researcn. True irony is rare, but you've managed to nail hypocrisy right on the head. Unlike you, I cite my sources. The following comes straight from the Catholic canon, as per Victor, one of our local Catholics:

Code of Canon Law
"No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless it is clearly established as such" (CIC 749 § 3).

Vatican I, which defined the doctrine of Infallibility for the Pope says, "The Roman pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra . . . possesses through the divine assistance promised to him in the person of blessed Peter, the infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to be endowed in defining the doctrine concerning faith or morals" (Pastor Aeternus 4).

Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility with unity of bishops (Ecumenical Councils) as follows: "Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith" (Lumen Gentium 25).

Now what was that about not knowing what I was defending?

 

[madhatter85]

Okay, back on subject...

There are many good people and pracitces in the Catholic church, my wife having been one of those former members..

There are also many good end time prophecies which come from Catholic members as well as other Christian organizations..

The body of Christ is diverse/varied.

"If there is anything. virtuous, lovely or of good report or or praiseworthy, we seek after these things".
~LDS 13th Articles of Faith ~

Good can come from varied Christian sources, including Catholicism...

We meet God half way with our various religions and worship services...

Some day the various structures, consisting of Christ's church, will be done away with, and only the pure Church of Christ, the Lamb of God, will emerge/exist.

James 1: 27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and the widows in their affiliation, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Good and evil exists in ALL Christian organizations/religions, we need not be hung up about it, but only be aware of it in all of it's various good and evil forms.

There are many "hidden" anitchrists within ALL Christian organizations as well as in and throughout the world.

Beware of men and women trying to emulate Christ, but their hearts are far from him...

Many prophesy in the name of Christ but they may secretly be living a double life...most of us are guilty of this, including myself, we are all sinners saved by grace and works... but some are not sorry for their sins and of these we need to be aware..

We can discern the true followers of Christ by the works they perform and the RESULTS of those works.

Matthew 7: 16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Yes, there are plenty of people who are of different faiths and religions who are very spiritual people. my wife being one of them, i see it in her, she senses the spirit, even though she doesn't want to admit it (because the term "feeling the spirit" makes her a little nervous).

you will always know who are the good, because it has been promised that you will "Reap what you sow"

 

[madhatter85]

The pope is only considered to be infallible when he's speaking ex cathedra. That's pretty close to what we believe about our prophet. I really think you should avoid spouting baseless comments and then follow them up with a recommendation for researcn. True irony is rare, but you've managed to nail hypocrisy right on the head. Unlike you, I cite my sources. The following comes straight from the Catholic canon, as per Victor, one of our local Catholics:



Now what was that about not knowing what I was defending?

"Only one person on the world at one time holds the keys to revelations of the Church of the Lamb of God."

 

[DeepShadow]

the doctrine has never changed, the way we teach has never changed, what we teach has never changed.

--A hundred years ago in General Conference, Apostles were preaching that polygamy was essential to our salvation.

--Lectures on Faith in the early church taught unequivocally that the Godhead was two beings--God the Father and Christ the Son--and that the Holy Ghost was not a personage, but the united mind of those two. It was well into the ministry of Brigham Young when that doctrine was clarified.

--We had even longer to wait on clarification of sealing; until Wilford Woodruff came along, people tended to seal themselves to a church leader rather than a relative, to assure themselves a noble lineage in the hereafter.

And why should this bother Latter-Day Saints, who sing every year that "the Lord is extending the Saints understanding"? Who speak frequently of "line upon line, precept upon precept"? We are a changing church, MadHatter. Our doctrines are clarified, and that's a form of change. I'm sure you know as I do that the core principles are unchanging, but that's not something you can show to an outsider. It must be accepted on faith. Please stop trying to put our church into a cosmic shouting contest with someone else's.

 

[nutshell]

Yes,

Read D&C Section 132 if you want to know more about plural marriages and poligamy. Abraham, and a ton of other listed there were granted plural wives and concubines because of thier obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, but none (including early church history) were allowed additional wives if his current one(s) did not all agree on it. if he had 10 wives, all of them had to agree with thier husband on takign on an 11th wife, if one said no, it was not so.

I'm familiar with the doctrine. The issue is change.

Was it practiced before and now it's not?

Yes.

It changed.

On the blacks holding the priesthood, it was in ensign articles throught old times, that blacks are decended from Cain and we don't understand what happened in the war in heaven, but some speculate that there were "fence sitters" who didn't care what they did as long as they got a body. and there has been specualtion that the decendants of cain were the ones to recieve bodies from his lineage. Again, it doesn't really pertain to our salvation seeing as black people even though they coudl not obtain the priesthood, all the temple ordinances, salvation, exaltation, and other coveneants were never denied them.

Wow. Do you really believe that fence sitting crap? I'm pretty sure that was never in the Ensign.

Check your history. Blacks were denied the temple too.

Anyway, this is about change. Blacks received the blessings of the gospel under Joseph Smith, but lost that opportunity because of Brigham Young. Eventually, Brigham's error was corrected.

Change. Change. Change.

And the endowment i am not going to talk about because it is a sacred temple ordinance and i am not going to simplify it and have someone take it out of context. and it really doesn't matter, the doctrine is still the same, the coveneant did not change it has always remained the same, that is the important part.

The overall covenant didn't change, but some more sensitive parts were removed.

Change.



Bottom line: Next time you want to spout off against the Roman Catholics and change, think long and hard about your own church, young man.

 

[FFH]

People seem to just get the wrong idea about us Madhatter.

We are not Catholic haters but can see certain scriptures fulfilled by many in the Catholic church, specifically those in the Vatican...

There is good and bad in all churches...

We need to wake up to this fact...

 

[DeepShadow]

"Only one person on the world at one time holds the keys to revelations of the Church of the Lamb of God."

And you and I believe that's the Prophet, Victor and others believe it's the Pope. Where do you get off belittling their faith? You're as bad as the people holding up signs outside temple square!

If that's as far as your scholarship goes, it's a pretty sad state. Try this one on: "We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God, according to the dictates of our own conscience, and we allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where, or what they may."

I don't put qualifiers on that statement, do you? Is this one of those, "let's agree to respect each others' beliefs, no matter how wrong yours are" sort of situations?

 

[FFH]

Bottom line: Next time you want to spout off against the Roman Catholics and change, think long and hard about your own church, young man.

Goos, debate, but we need to realize that we have the most truth of any church, flaws and all..

We have the most truth and change will happen in the LDS church as WE change and become better people.

I witnessed the changes in the temple and was curious as to the reasons for the changes but it is very obvious if you are in tune with the spirit..

The LDS members became more righteous, as a whole, and thus change came about regarding the temple...

 

[DeepShadow]

I'm not denying that, FFH, and while I hesistate to speak for Nutshell, his arguments so far in this thread have been specific: to say that our church has never changed is fallacious. It has changed, many times. I believe it's always been for the better. I embrace that change as part of the wonders of the gospel, that as we are ready, more is revealed.

Thus, criticizing another church for changing--especially changing for the better--is hypocritical.

 

[FFH]

And you and I believe that's the Prophet, Victor and others believe it's the Pope. Where do you get off belittling their faith? You're as bad as the people holding up signs outside temple square!

Easy DeepShadow, we're not fanatics about this, just look at scripture..

God is not against the Catholics, but against some of it's practices and leaders as well as members, just as he is against many of our practices, leaders and members, it's no different with us or any other Christian religion, also look at the Jews, God does not hate the Jews, but there are many he opposes, who are not doing what he wants them to do, the Holocaust was a result of the Jews not listening to him and escaping their enemies when they were warned to flee Germany...

The Jews were warned to sell their houses, land and businesses and flee certain parts of Europe in order to avoid the persecution they went through but they refused to do so...

Some one will inevitably misread that last bit...

If that's as far as your scholarship goes, it's a pretty sad state. Try this one on: "We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God, according to the dictates of our own conscience, and we allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Again, easy big fella, no one is taking this that far...

I don't put qualifiers on that statement, do you? Is this one of those, "let's agree to respect each others' beliefs, no matter how wrong yours are" sort of situations?

I see more antagonism from you and Nutshell than from Madhatter...

We all need to be a bit more sensitive, but not at the expense of being in the dark about certain practices of ALL religions...

We (LDS) need to be scrutinized just as the Catholic church needs to be scrutinized so that evil does not persist in either religion...

This isnt about hate its about love and helping our fellow man see the truth...

Truth is good and it needs to be brought out into the light as do the lies and evil practices of ALL religions who frofess to be Christian...

God judges the his church first, then the world...

Doctrine and Covenants reveals this...

God will judge us (ALL Christian religions and the Jews first) before he judges the world, because we now better..

 

[Bishka]

Easy DeepShadow, we're not fanatics about this, just look at scripture..

You fit a scripture to your needs, wants, desires and prejudices. It happens to everyone.