Apostates of Islam

[.lava]

I said nothing about you or any Muslim save one. You did not create Allah nor did any Muslim - save one. My comment "From evil minds spring evil gods" refers to Muhammad's mind and his creation Allah. Both, as far as I'm concerned, were/are evil. Any or all minds who would create such an evil god hold an evil mind.

I would see Islam transformed to the peaceful religion it claims to be - not destroyed. That would be my first choice.

you said nothing about me or any Muslim...and who's gonna buy THAT?! you call WHAT WE BELIEVE evil, you call the man evil and insane that WE SEE AND ACCEPT AS IDEAL MAN, you say the path WE FOLLOW is "the problem" and you expect us to be sooo sooo sooo silly and stupid so we would believe you when you say "i said nothing about you or any Muslim". without any believers there can not be a belief and we believe in Allah that you openly call evil. so our Rab would be evil, our Prophet would be evil, our book would be evil, our path would be evil and that's not going to make us evil!!! you are such a dishonest person. if i believed you sincerely was scared of what yu've seen, i would definetely offer my love to you cos in this world somethings that i've seen shocked me, terrified me and made me roll into to deepest sadness but i was honest and looked for an answer. you get what you look for. you look for lies, violance, crulty, hatred...so don't be so surprised when life bring you what you offer to life. may or may not believe in God or a creater but your lack of belief cold not save you to get what you earn, what comes around, goes around--a saying belongs to your culture. you are truly a disgrace to humanity, disgrace to non-Muslim nations and societies. you feed hatred and if you did not have chance to feed hatred on Islam, dear God, you try to creat it, you try to creat reasons to feed hatred. if you are not aware of what you're doing, which i doubt, you're going to be so unhappy. you do not need any maniac or cold blood murderer or any facist Muslim or facist non-Muslim to be miserable. you are on your own would be enough!!


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[ProudMuslim]

you said nothing about me or any Muslim...and who's gonna buy THAT?! you call WHAT WE BELIEVE evil, you call the man evil and insane that WE SEE AND ACCEPT AS IDEAL MAN, you say the path WE FOLLOW is "the problem" and you expect us to be sooo sooo sooo silly and stupid so we would believe you when you say "i said nothing about you or any Muslim". without any believers there can not be a belief and we believe in Allah that you openly call evil. so our Rab would be evil, our Prophet would be evil, our book would be evil, our path would be evil and that's not going to make us evil!!! you are such a dishonest person. if i believed you sincerely was scared of what yu've seen, i would definetely offer my love to you cos in this world somethings that i've seen shocked me, terrified me and made me roll into to deepest sadness but i was honest and looked for an answer. you get what you look for. you look for lies, violance, crulty, hatred...so don't be so surprised when life bring you what you offer to life. may or may not believe in God or a creater but your lack of belief cold not save you to get what you earn, what comes around, goes around--a saying belongs to your culture. you are truly a disgrace to humanity, disgrace to non-Muslim nations and societies. you feed hatred and if you did not have chance to feed hatred on Islam, dear God, you try to creat it, you try to creat reasons to feed hatred. if you are not aware of what you're doing, which i doubt, you're going to be so unhappy. you do not need any maniac or cold blood murderer or any facist Muslim or facist non-Muslim to be miserable. you are on your own would be enough!!
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Perfect :clap

 

[Mr Spinkles]

you are scaring me Sprinkles.

i never said that the punishment for an apostate who speaks his mind out is death, where did you all get that?

the only apostates that are killed are those who are hypocrits, i will post you Fatihahs' answer on that ok.

eselam if I have misrepresented your view I apologize.

However, you have clearly said a number of times that the punishment for an apostate who tries to "disprove" Islam, or "spread falsehoods" about Islam, is death (see below).

In practice, surely you realize this is virtually the same as saying apostates cannot speak their minds at all. Obviously, apostates (like all non-Muslims) will hold opinions which Muslims consider to be falsehoods. Obviously, they will believe Islam is mistaken, or wrong somehow. So if they express their honest opinions it can easily be argued that they are spreading lies, or trying to disprove Islam. And the fear of being executed (if this rule were in effect) would inhibit people from saying anything on the topic of religion, because of the danger that they might say something "out of bounds" and end up executed.

Imagine if I told you, sure, we can have a debate about atheism vs. Islam....but if you try to disprove atheism, or spread any falsehoods about atheism, or insult atheism, the punishment for you is death. Would you truly feel free to speak your mind? Of course not. And I wouldn't dream of supporting such a barbaric and cruel punishment even if you deliberately and knowingly spread lies about atheism, insulted atheism, etc.

Remember, here is what you said:

well i really don't know the answer to that, but i would think that an appostate would not be killed if they converted (left islam) and didn't try to dissprove islam.

many muslims who become non muslims think they have great chances of dissproving islam, simply because they were muslims, and in fact the punishment is for these people, because it is such people that are the hypocrits as mentioned.

they think that they can dissprove islam, and many non muslims would actually believe that person, simply because he was a muslim and has left islam. thats why the punishment of such people is death, he isn't punished immediately after leaving islam but probably after some time and after evidence is gathered that they are an enemie to islam.

Now, just to emphasize my point, imagine the following:

Imagine that I, as an atheist, believed that an atheist who becomes an apostate (say, she converts to Islam) is allowed to speak her mind. She's allowed to speak her mind, that is, as long as she doesn't try to disprove atheism, or spread falsehoods about atheism, or insult atheists. Her words will have to be carefully examined by the proper atheist judges, of course, to determine whether they fall into these categories. If they do fall into those categories, then she is fighting against me, she is my enemy and the punishment for her is death (by the official atheist leader, not individual atheists, of course).

What would you think, if that was what I believed?
Would that be fair?
Would that be reasonable?
Would "atheist apostates" truly be free to speak their minds?

Clearly they would not be free, they would be coerced under threat. That is why I support a person's right to truly speak their mind, including (and perhaps especially) if I hate what they are saying. That includes people who, from my perspective, insult atheism, try to disprove atheism, etc.

You say apostates can speak their minds; unless they try to disprove Islam, insult Islam, spread lies about Islam; then the punishment is death (not "You're no longer invited to my birthday party," but death). Therefore, effectively, apostates cannot speak their minds, according to you.

Do you see what I'm saying? Does that make sense?

 

[England my lionheart]

This is an extremely long thread. I haven't posted much but I have been reading....the problem is the thread keeps going off on off-topic tangents.

There are a few things I don't fully understand about the arguments in this thread:

1. Do "England my lionheart" and "Alla Prima" insist that all possible sects/interpretations of Islam necessarily promote prejudice, hostility, and oppression of apostates? Clearly, some Muslims have adopted more humane interpetations. Just as some Christians and Jews have adopted more humane interpretations.

Of course not all Muslims take Ahadith literally,in Western Europe they would'nt be allowed even if they wanted to,many Muslims see quite clearly that the Ahadith of Apostacy or Child Marriage is not the done thing in this day and age but the problem is there are many other Muslims that do.
Islam,despite the claims of the fastest growing religion etc is at least as fragmented as Christianity but with a twist,the Ahadith,and this is where it all goes wrong especially in Islamic States,Apostates,Homosexuals,Athiests,free thinking are all punished and even Egypt which is supposedly secular but in reality has a massive leaning towards Islam and the top Islamic University Al Aksar punishes free speech.
The other problem is Islamic Clerics,Immams etc which are simmilar in a way to the Ahadith in that nobody seems to know which ones are authentic and many spout hatred and intollerance like calling for Jihad.
There is a terrible statistic for Islam and that is every Islamic State administered via Sharia Law abuses Human rights,whether it's Apostates,Adulterers,Women Sharia and it's ugliness does it's job of Totalitarialsm.
There is some good news though,here in the UK some Muslims are changing the way they view the Ahadith and Sunna and adapting them to modern living and apparently only one third of 17 to 24 year old Muslims think the death penalty for Apostacy is right (still too many) so at least some are trying to come to terms with the 21st Century.

 

[England my lionheart]

eselam if I have misrepresented your view I apologize.

However, you have clearly said a number of times that the punishment for an apostate who tries to "disprove" Islam, or "spread falsehoods" about Islam, is death (see below).

In practice, surely you realize this is virtually the same as saying apostates cannot speak their minds at all. Obviously, apostates (like all non-Muslims) will hold opinions which Muslims consider to be falsehoods. Obviously, they will believe Islam is mistaken, or wrong somehow. So if they express their honest opinions it can easily be argued that they are spreading lies, or trying to disprove Islam. And the fear of being executed (if this rule were in effect) would inhibit people from saying anything on the topic of religion, because of the danger that they might say something "out of bounds" and end up executed.

Imagine if I told you, sure, we can have a debate about atheism vs. Islam....but if you try to disprove atheism, or spread any falsehoods about atheism, or insult atheism, the punishment for you is death. Would you truly feel free to speak your mind? Of course not. And I wouldn't dream of supporting such a barbaric and cruel punishment even if you deliberately and knowingly spread lies about atheism, insulted atheism, etc.

Remember, here is what you said:


Now, just to emphasize my point, imagine the following:

Imagine that I, as an atheist, believed that an atheist who becomes an apostate (say, she converts to Islam) is allowed to speak her mind. She's allowed to speak her mind, that is, as long as she doesn't try to disprove atheism, or spread falsehoods about atheism, or insult atheists. Her words will have to be carefully examined by the proper atheist judges, of course, to determine whether they fall into these categories. If they do fall into those categories, then she is fighting against me, she is my enemy and the punishment for her is death (by the official atheist leader, not individual atheists, of course).

What would you think, if that was what I believed?
Would that be fair?
Would that be reasonable?
Would "atheist apostates" truly be free to speak their minds?

Clearly they would not be free, they would be coerced under threat. That is why I support a person's right to truly speak their mind, including (and perhaps especially) if I hate what they are saying. That includes people who, from my perspective, insult atheism, try to disprove atheism, etc.

You say apostates can speak their minds; unless they try to disprove Islam, insult Islam, spread lies about Islam; then the punishment is death (not "You're no longer invited to my birthday party," but death). Therefore, effectively, apostates cannot speak their minds, according to you.

Do you see what I'm saying? Does that make sense?

Good post Mr Spinkles

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Of course it is barbaric and it is not limited to Muslims. Secular and Christians psychos in your country do it all the time. Angelina Jolie faced death threats when she donated a million to the Afghanis. The Dixie Chicks recieved death threats after one member voice her opinion about Bush. The list goes on and on about your "civilized" fellow trash who live in a "free society".

The funny thing is that apparently Angelina's donation uproared many followers of 'Jesus Love' to the point where they wanted to kill her, just like one trivial sentence like "We are embarrased that Bush is from Texas" led to destruction of their cds, public boycott and death threats. Your "secular" country is seriously full of psychos who are even worse than those Muslims who threatened the likes of Wafaa Sultan who openly declared her sole purpose is to fight Islam.

That's a good point.

 

[Alla Prima]

you said nothing about me or any Muslim...and who's gonna buy THAT?! you call WHAT WE BELIEVE evil, you call the man evil and insane that WE SEE AND ACCEPT AS IDEAL MAN, you say the path WE FOLLOW is "the problem" and you expect us to be sooo sooo sooo silly and stupid so we would believe you when you say "i said nothing about you or any Muslim".

That's right. I said nothing about you or any Muslim personally (save one). I criticized the ideology you follow.

without any believers there can not be a belief and we believe in Allah that you openly call evil. so our Rab would be evil, our Prophet would be evil, our book would be evil, our path would be evil and that's not going to make us evil!!!

It makes you misinformed not evil.

you are such a dishonest person. if i believed you sincerely was scared of what yu've seen, i would definetely offer my love to you cos in this world somethings that i've seen shocked me, terrified me and made me roll into to deepest sadness but i was honest and looked for an answer. you get what you look for. you look for lies, violance, crulty, hatred...so don't be so surprised when life bring you what you offer to life.

I looked for truth not lies.

may or may not believe in God or a creater but your lack of belief cold not save you to get what you earn, what comes around, goes around--a saying belongs to your culture. you are truly a disgrace to humanity, disgrace to non-Muslim nations and societies. you feed hatred and if you did not have chance to feed hatred on Islam, dear God, you try to creat it, you try to creat reasons to feed hatred. if you are not aware of what you're doing, which i doubt, you're going to be so unhappy. you do not need any maniac or cold blood murderer or any facist Muslim or facist non-Muslim to be miserable. you are on your own would be enough!!

I'm happy. Islam creates the hatred not I.

 

[Alla Prima]

Yes ironic, while you go on and on about how evil my God is, how evil my Prophet is, how evil my religion is and and how delusional Muslims all while posting ridiculous full of hatred posts, you find offence in me calling those Americans who issued death threats 'trash'.

Please point me to the post where you called the Muslims who issued death threats "trash"?

 

[.lava]

That's right. I said nothing about you or any Muslim personally (save one). I criticized the ideology you follow.

even though i do not follow any ideology. i support human rights as i am commanded by God clearly.

It makes you misinformed not evil.

so you dare to apply i can not see the path i walk? you say i am blind? so this lovely Imam who teaches me does not know Islam. what the heck do you think we are?! WE LIVE ISLAM, WE ARE ISLAM. as i said before you would never support us as long as we love people and we know what Islam is. if we were lost like some and hated non_muslims, gave fatwas and punish people with death...etc you could only be happy about it. because this is what you want to see. if not, you would not have any weapon to attack Islam. therefor you need violent Muslims. therefor you look for Muslims who does not support human rights. therefor you have your freakin' folder fulfilled with lies about Islam. this is why you do not collect about goodness of Muslims but wrong doings. and you think you are clever! you ARE a joke, a pathetic joke.

I looked for truth not lies.

we are the truth!! truth is not what you're looking for. you look for violance and bloodshed done by Muslims, you look for evil in people all the time. finding negative thoughts about Islam make you happy as if wong doers brought peace to this world. whoever looks for truth would find it with us. if humanity, love, respect, friendship, honesty...etc all those good things and virtues were not accepted as truth by you, then what's there to say to you? heal yourself. ask for help.

I'm happy. Islam creates the hatred not I.

i am not buying it. you might have some pleasure in life but that is not what we call happiness. you are the one who focus on negative stuff and ignore positivity. you feed hatred. any ignorant who would learn from you would be facist and he would definetely hate all the Muslims. and you would call that success, you would think you saved someone from Islam. hatred does not make ANYONE happy, never did and never will. we do not need to share the same path to know that. that's one of the things where everyone remains equal.

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[.lava]

Please point me to the post where you called the Muslims who issued death threats "trash"?

you first show us where she said she approves fatwas.

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[Alla Prima]

Umm let's play stupid here and pretend you are "lost" totally at my accusation to that sad Wafaa. Since Islam IS the problem according to her, she is threatning that Muslims need to change their religion (just like some people do, altering their holy books) to seek the blessing of their fellow spiritual free fellows OR we need to be crushed. See, she is a humanist, i wonder why many hate her [/FONT]

You'd do better for yourself if you concentrated on why so many people are beginning to hate your ideology. If the hatred and tyranny she claims to exist within Islam doesn't exist then why hate her? If it does exist then why hate her? Rather thank her for pointing it out.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Please point me to the post where you called the Muslims who issued death threats "trash"?

I didn't because you have already done that job in your indiscriminate attacks on Islam and Muslim. I was filling a gap left out by you.

 

[ProudMuslim]

You'd do better for yourself if you concentrated on why so many people are beginning to hate your ideology. If the hatred and tyranny she claims to exist within Islam doesn't exist then why hate her? If it does exist then why hate her? Rather thank her for pointing it out.

Let's me examine this again. So you are seriously asking me why Wafaa is a despicable nutcase? Maybe, MAYBE because she considers my God, my Prophet, my holy book, my values, and everything i stand for is evil and must be crushed. Did this make it through your head?)(

 

[Alla Prima]

Let's me examine this again. So you are seriously asking me why Wafaa is a despicable nutcase?

Of course not. She nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite.

Maybe, MAYBE because she considers my God, my Prophet, my holy book, my values, and everything i stand for is evil and must be crushed.

Do you value hatred towards non Muslims? Do you value Tyranny? Misogyny? Domination? Are these your values?

 

[Alla Prima]

I didn't because you have already done that job in your indiscriminate attacks on Islam and Muslim. I was filling a gap left out by you.

I suggest you look up the meaning of 'indiscriminate'. You're using it improperly.

 

[Alla Prima]

i am not buying it. you might have some pleasure in life but that is not what we call happiness. you are the one who focus on negative stuff and ignore positivity. you feed hatred. any ignorant who would learn from you would be facist and he would definetely hate all the Muslims. and you would call that success, you would think you saved someone from Islam. hatred does not make ANYONE happy, never did and never will. we do not need to share the same path to know that. that's one of the things where everyone remains equal.

Either you're not reading my comments or you're willfully ignoring them to give free way for your false accusations. You hate my criticisms so much that you're blinded by this hate. I feed nothing. I criticize Islam and urge others to do likewise. Judge for themselves.

And I know what happiness is. I'm Buddhist.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Of course not. She nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite.

Birds of the same feather flock together.

Do you value hatred towards non Muslims? Do you value Tyranny? Misogyny? Domination? Are these your values?

Nice try. My values and principles are thankfully based on Islamic teachings. That nutcase declared that Islam is her enemy, therefore i am her enemy and she wants me to be crushed.

Quit playing around.

 

[England my lionheart]

Can everyone please keep to topic

 

[Zindagee Rahmaan]

OKay I try! hm!

Sorry for I couldn't be able to read 74 pages, but I'm just adhering to the very forst post. wait a bit!

 

[Zindagee Rahmaan]

"Let the be no compuslion in religion" i have heard this many times and this "If one among the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him so that he may hear the Word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure."
because if you only read this
[SIZE=-1]Sura 47.4 "When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."[/SIZE]
we are told its taken out of context ok fair enough but if we look at the case of Kareem Soliman the Egyptian Blogger who was jailed for criticising Islam and Al-Azhar Unerversity it is apparent that all Muslims are not reading from the same book.
Apostacy in Islam is punished,its a fact it is punishable by death and although Kareem was'nt killed he is in fear of his life as the authorities have said he is an Atheist.
This kind of thing is going on throughout the Islamic world,Egypt has two faces one Islamic and one secular and Kareem is being punished by both which is a worrying sign of a corrupt Government and Police force.
My question ,to Muslims especially,what are your views on Apostacy in Islam and should Kareem be punished for criticising Islam and being an Atheist? please be honest

Kareem Amer was punnished because of two reasons:

He was arrested by Egyptian authorities for posts on his blog that were considered to be anti-religious and insulting to Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

I think he has been arrested for the second the reason. Otherwise Islam takes certain conditions for punnishment. Here about apostancy: I support this source:
The Punishment of Apostasy in Islam - Part 1: Qur`anic Perspective

Scrolling down to the page while reading this passage headed "
DEALING WITH APOSTASY
"

States first category of apostasy:

1) An apostate leaves Islam because of ignorance of Islam or some confusion that leads him to think that his new religion or way is truer and better. Such a person will be willing to listen to the Muslims if they want to show him that he has made a mistake. The Muslims should treat him kindly and argue with him in the best possible way. (60:8, 16:125). But Muslims should be careful not to show him more kindness than they show to other Muslims, for, otherwise the apostate may be encouraged to stay an apostate.

I think Kareem Amer should be treaded in first level as defined above. Regarding this question that he should be punnished or not, I've no right for any sentence about him, we need to check his blogs and we need to understand his thoughts.