Are Atheists just close minded Agnostics?

[Willamena]

Its not a safe option.


1 God exist
2 doesnt exist
3 not sure

1 No evidence he does

2 evidence he was created after a compilation of El and Yahweh both previous deities to the ancient hebrews.

3 not sure about the evidence he doesnt exist

The claim "God exists" is a claim of belief. The claim of the atheist is not comparable if it reduces to a claim about the soundness of the theist's belief. It's an important distinction, that the two claims are not comparable (apples and oranges).

As much as the agnostic may know that he can't know, it is not necessarily a statement that he is unsure; he can be very sure that he knows that he can't know. Yes, there are people who are unsure who identify as agnostic, but agnosticism only makes a claim about what we can't know.

For me and its just my opinion but for those who fit #3,,,, I only see as not doing enough homework on the formation of these deities in previous religions before they made it to the hebrew culture. funny we know quite a bit about El, Yahweh we are limited on.

I dont see how #3 is a safe option

#1 I say belief in what exactly? because few agree with the abrahamic deity

#2 we are born with as a default position

Don't start that "default" nonsense again.

 

[idav]

Wait. You don't have "a belief" without something in which to believe. When you see the theist as making "an assumption" about god's existence, is that to say that the theist doesn't know what it is that they're investing belief in? Because I would have to disagree. Whether it is something imagined or objectively real, a priori (reasoned) or a posteriori (experienced) knowledge, there is something that is being believed by the theist. The atheist has his beliefs, too, which just don't happen to include a something that the theist says they believe.

An agnostic can say I don't know and there may or may not be a belief but as soon as someone says I don't believe then it is a 'no' to being theist. If I ask an agnostic if they believe in god, only a 'yes' would make them theist while a 'no' would make them agnostic atheist and it doesn't matter whether they know for sure or not.

It is kinda like asking someone to render a verdict of guilty or not guilty. Sure a person can say I don't know but when asked to make a decision they may just default to not guilty with not enough evidence at hand to make a confirmation of guilt. Just as the default is not guilty the default for people is not theist. Asking someone if they have the opinion of guilty or not guilty is valid even if they don't have enough evidence as we would want them to say based on what they know and believe.

 

[idav]

Don't start that "default" nonsense again.

Oops didn't see this before I posted above.

 

[idav]

The claim "God exists" is a claim of belief.

You would really have to dig into the context to know whether "god exists" is a claim of belief or claim of knowledge cause it kinda sounds like both. I'm more interested in whether they believe they know not if they actually know.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So all the folks who identify themselves as Agnostic are Atheists? I don't think so.

An Agnostic can say they don't believe in God because the evidence does not support Theism and that does not make them an Atheist.

If everyone who is Agnostic is Atheist why even have the term Agnostic?

People use the term too loosely.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So all the folks who identify themselves as Agnostic are Atheists? I don't think so.

An Agnostic can say they don't believe in God because the evidence does not support Theism and that does not make them an Atheist.

If everyone who is Agnostic is Atheist why even have the term Agnostic?

People use the term too loosely.

Perhaps you're using it too narrowly.

 

[Nakosis]

So all the folks who identify themselves as Agnostic are Atheists? I don't think so.

An Agnostic can say they don't believe in God because the evidence does not support Theism and that does not make them an Atheist.

If everyone who is Agnostic is Atheist why even have the term Agnostic?

People use the term too loosely.

Well, yeah... That's on purpose. You want to be able to include as many people in your own group as possible. It's just politically practical. The more politically popular one can show their beliefs to be the more likely others will adopt/support the thinking.

Follow the herd you know. A little bit of sarcasm there but it's also kind of true. If one wants political support they should be as inclusive as possible.

 

[Willamena]

You would really have to dig into the context to know whether "god exists" is a claim of belief or claim of knowledge cause it kinda sounds like both. I'm more interested in whether they believe they know not if they actually know.

It may or may not be knowledge, but it never stops being belief. A claim of knowledge contains a claim of belief.

 

[Willamena]

So all the folks who identify themselves as Agnostic are Atheists? I don't think so.

An Agnostic can say they don't believe in God because the evidence does not support Theism and that does not make them an Atheist.

If everyone who is Agnostic is Atheist why even have the term Agnostic?

People use the term too loosely.

There are agnostic theists, those who know that they cannot know God, and even some who know the way in which they cannot know by reasoning (the relationship of knowledge to an objective reality, for instance), but still invest belief in what lies beyond what they can know. Agnosticism is just a claim about what we can't know.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Well, yeah... That's on purpose. You want to be able to include as many people in your own group as possible. It's just politically practical. The more politically popular one can show their beliefs to be the more likely others will adopt/support the thinking.

That's interesting. My beliefs, or lack of, aren't political at all, nor do I care about how many people agree with me. I'm more concerned with people believing things based on a good understanding and honest use of reason, logic, and knowledge. I'd rather have quality in my "group" rather than quantity. Of course, I do realize that the social mindset that fuels other groups, like religions, has a different perspective.

 

[riley2112]

That's interesting. My beliefs, or lack of, aren't political at all, nor do I care about how many people agree with me. I'm more concerned with people believing things based on a good understanding and honest use of reason, logic, and knowledge. I'd rather have quality in my "group" rather than quantity. Of course, I do realize that the social mindset that fuels other groups, like religions, has a different perspective.

I understand your thought on the subject. My only problem with your mind set however, is the fact that you are throwing a lot of groups into the same perspective. As your beliefs, or lack of was misinterpret as political you could be also misinterpreting the same about other people. As for most groups , surely you must admit that Atheist would also fit into that category as well.

 

[outhouse]

Don't start that "default" nonsense again.

hey hey hey who's closed minded now LOL

 

[work in progress]

A person who is unsure may be agnostic but whether they choose to believe something or not is irrelevant. Agnostics can be atheist/theist or choose not to make a claim.

I would rather go with the assumption that an agnostic is unsure even if they are leaning in one direction or the other. People who are more sure of their beliefs are not agnostics.

I might agree there is no such thing a true gnostic theist/atheist but some people are sure they know. Not being able have absolute knowledge doesn't prevent people from claiming that they have full knowledge of theism/atheism. That is another issue though.

When it comes to knowing how the Universe functions and where it all came from, we should all be agnostics because there are still so many unknowns. And, the arguments about whether or not God exists, come wrapped in assumptions about what God is, something that could completely take us by surprise as the progression of physics,cosmology and other sciences continues in the future. I call myself an atheist because I don't see the evidence of intelligent design in life processes or how the universe has unfolded....but that could change in the future. I can only base my beliefs on the way things look here and now.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I understand your thought on the subject. My only problem with your mind set however, is the fact that you are throwing a lot of groups into the same perspective. As your beliefs, or lack of was misinterpret as political you could be also misinterpreting the same about other people. As for most groups , surely you must admit that Atheist would also fit into that category as well.

I only go with what the facts bear out. Most religions are highly political, and have the explicit goal of increasing membership.

 

[riley2112]

I only go with what the facts bear out. Most religions are highly political, and have the explicit goal of increasing membership.

That I would not argue, however Atheist are also highly political and have the same goal of increasing their numbers. would not you agree?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That I would not argue, however Atheist are also highly political and have the same goal of increasing their numbers. would not you agree?

I don't know whether there are many atheists who want others to be atheists for its own sake or not. I'm sure there are some, but I doubt that describes most. This is because, for most atheists, atheism is merely one natural conclusion of being rational. The identity of being an "atheist" isn't really central to most atheists lives.

 

[riley2112]

I don't know whether there are many atheists who want others to be atheists for its own sake or not. I'm sure there are some, but I doubt that describes most. This is because, for most atheists, atheism is merely one natural conclusion of being rational. The identity of being an "atheist" isn't really central to most atheists lives.

Really , I have found that to be the total reverse, Most atheist I know and for some reason I seem to know a lot.( not sure why) But they are always on me to throw away my beliefs for a more logical view point. I have found some forums that go as far as talking about ways to remove religion and all that believe so that in their words , the world can be rid of the foolishness and get on to dealing with more important things. I am not sure how they believe they could do this , being that there are around 7 billion people on the planet and over 6 billion believe in God in one form or another.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Really , I have found that to be the total reverse, Most atheist I know and for some reason I seem to know a lot.( not sure why) But they are always on me to throw away my beliefs for a more logical view point.

Right, but they don't just want more people to be atheists, they want people to make more rational, logical, and informed decisions. It's not about recruiting more atheists. It's about wanting the people around you to see the advantages of rationality.

 

[riley2112]

Right, but they don't just want more people to be atheists, they want people to make more rational, logical, and informed decisions. It's not about recruiting more atheists. It's about wanting the people around you to see the advantages of rationality.

Never really looked at it that way before. That sounds reasonable to me. People of faith are kinda like that to. We just want people to see the advantages of irrationality.( uh, wait, did I really write that?) :help:,, I can understand why some people find it hard to believe in God. I mean I believe in Him but I can not find anyone that can explain how they know the way that they worship him is the right way. Including me. All I know is when I come face to face with Him, and after I stop shaking in my boots.( will they let me wear boots there?) I do have a few questions for him.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Agnosticism is just a claim about what we can't know.

JUST? Did you say just? A whole group of people who identify themselves as Agnostic is "just a claim"?

I'm sorry Willamena, Agnosticism is a belief system that millions of people identify with. Do you realise how many RF members here are Agnostics?