Are Atheists just close minded Agnostics?

[Viker]

I guess I have a new or odd version of atheism. No where in my atheism does it say a god can not be known or does not exist. I also think it turns into an agnosticism of it's own that just simply says I don't know. Like my atheism says I lack belief. Those are not closed and locked up statements, there's quite a bit of wiggle room left there.

I stick with the word atheism mostly because it's short and sounds spooky.

 

[Revoltingest]

How about it, what is the difference between the two?

Closed mindedness seems independent of both.
We could be individually open or closed minded.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

I have explained my strong beliefs and the reason for them, what brings an Atheist to the level of faith that I have in saying absolutely that there is no God.

With this atheist, the faith of which you speak is love. Amo ergo sum, no?

If your personification of love is God and mine is Set, what's the difference? For one, I don't try to do good for good's sake, I do good for my sake.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't see how these hybid beliefs play any part of this discussion other than to confuse.

A Theist believes in God.
An Atheist does not believe in God.
An Agnostic does not believe or disbelieve in God.

Actually if you think about it, an Agnostic has the most sound reasoning and is the most open minded of the three.

An Agnostic accepts that there is no proof either way, which honestly is the truth of the matter if you use reasoning and not probability in your thinking.

I disagree with your definition of "agnostic".

To me (and IMO in the original sense of the term), an agnostic is a person who believes that the answer to the question of the existence of God is unknowable. IOW, an agnostic is a person who thinks that anyone who has taken a firm stance on the question of God is wrong, or at least arrived at their position for poor reasons.

While I don't think that agnostics are necessarily closed-minded, I think this certainly allows for a high degree of closed-mindedness within the broad category of agnosticism.


However, if you insist on your definition of agnosticism (i.e. someone who does not believe or disbelieve in God), then I'd say that no agnostics actually exist. The way you've defined your terms, "atheist" and "theist" together form a mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive set: every person in existence falls into exactly one of those categories, so there's nobody left to be an agnostic.

 

[waitasec]

as far as i am concerned, as a non theist (does that fall under the atheist umbrella ), i am open to the consideration of a deity who is unconcerned or who is not involved with sentient beings.
that to me is more probable, but i doubt it

 

[outhouse]

Closed mindedness seems independent of both.
We could be individually open or closed minded.

I stated that my first post

 

[Reverend Rick]

I disagree with your definition of "agnostic".

To me (and IMO in the original sense of the term), an agnostic is a person who believes that the answer to the question of the existence of God is unknowable. IOW, an agnostic is a person who thinks that anyone who has taken a firm stance on the question of God is wrong, or at least arrived at their position for poor reasons.

While I don't think that agnostics are necessarily closed-minded, I think this certainly allows for a high degree of closed-mindedness within the broad category of agnosticism.


However, if you insist on your definition of agnosticism (i.e. someone who does not believe or disbelieve in God), then I'd say that no agnostics actually exist. The way you've defined your terms, "atheist" and "theist" together form a mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive set: every person in existence falls into exactly one of those categories, so there's nobody left to be an agnostic.

I will leave it to our Agnostic members to comment on this one.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

I disagree with your definition of "agnostic".

To me (and IMO in the original sense of the term), an agnostic is a person who believes that the answer to the question of the existence of God is unknowable. IOW, an agnostic is a person who thinks that anyone who has taken a firm stance on the question of God is wrong, or at least arrived at their position for poor reasons.

While I don't think that agnostics are necessarily closed-minded, I think this certainly allows for a high degree of closed-mindedness within the broad category of agnosticism.


However, if you insist on your definition of agnosticism (i.e. someone who does not believe or disbelieve in God), then I'd say that no agnostics actually exist. The way you've defined your terms, "atheist" and "theist" together form a mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive set: every person in existence falls into exactly one of those categories, so there's nobody left to be an agnostic.

My universal term would be atheist. 38000 sects of Christianity would seem to agree. "Lack of a belief in god" is a ridiculous definition of atheism and contrary to the origin of the term, which is basically "I don't believe in your god."

But of course god is knowable or we wouldn't be debating it, and of course god exists because it would be unreasonable to debate non-existent things. That's not debate, that's playing Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[outhouse]

However, a claim is made from what some people don't know (not saying you).

but could that claim be perception? and if not could that claim be considered closed minded

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the emotions involved with being an Atheist.

Myself, I have had a religious experience that left me stoked. I'm all pumped up. I'm closed minded.

An Atheist has found no evidence for God and has reached an anti-climatic realization that there is no God. I see no comparison of the level of emotion that is involved here.

I don't believe an Atheist is closed minded, but I'm not sure why the absence of proof equates that there is no God.

There is absence of proof of quantum physics too following that logic.

Honestly, lack of proof is just that, lack of proof. It does not prove or disprove anything.

The honest logician should have no choice but to be Agnostic.

 

[waitasec]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the emotions involved with being an Atheist.

Myself, I have had a religious experience that left me stoked. I'm all pumped up. I'm closed minded.

An Atheist has found no evidence for God and has reached an anti-climatic realization that there is no God. I see no comparison of the level of emotion that is involved here.

I don't believe an Atheist is closed minded, but I'm not sure why the absence of proof equates that there is no God.

There is absence of proof of quantum physics too following that logic.

Honestly, lack of proof is just that, lack of proof. It does not prove or disprove anything.

The honest logician should have no choice but to be Agnostic.

maybe that's it...
just because one feels something on an emotional level doesn't necessarily make it real for them.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the emotions involved with being an Atheist.

Myself, I have had a religious experience that left me stoked. I'm all pumped up. I'm closed minded.

An Atheist has found no evidence for God and has reached an anti-climatic realization that there is no God. I see no comparison of the level of emotion that is involved here.

I don't believe an Atheist is closed minded, but I'm not sure why the absence of proof equates that there is no God.

There is absence of proof of quantum physics too following that logic.

Honestly, lack of proof is just that, lack of proof. It does not prove or disprove anything.

The honest logician should have no choice but to be Agnostic.

There's faith in QM until the LHC kicks out a Higgs. Which is to say, this atheist is an honest logician; but love exists, yet not currently quantifiable. "Lack of belief" is not a card in this atheist's hand. "Set" is not simply Egyptian mythology, but rather a compilation of personal, long-standing hypotheses into a single, well, Set.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Well there is a lot of crossover, and the terms involved are often polymorphic or used commonly used in a technically incorrect way... For example 'Weak' Atheism (which is the majority of atheists btw) is technically not true Atheism at all (which is Strong Atheism) it is actually Agnostic Atheism or possibly Apathetic.

Its a case where people generally do not know the difference between the different types of belief (including atheism which incorporates a set of beliefs) and non-belief positions.

 

[outhouse]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the emotions involved with being an Atheist

same as you, exactly the same.

Myself, I have had a religious experience that left me stoked. I'm all pumped up. I'm closed minded.

who said you were closed minded?

thats cool you had a religious experience.

but I'm not sure why the absence of proof equates that there is no God.

because absense of proof is not absense of evidence brother Rick

The honest logician should have no choice but to be Agnostic.

when looking at the errancy of religious text it really does leave the door open to accept judgement either way.




Ill share my personal story with you.

I was in the hospital after my dad had a major stroke and heart attack, we were told there was no hope and they asked where do you want the organs donated to if anywhere.

I looked up and prayed, said hey um you, I havnt asked for anything in a long long time id be greatful if you could help me out for my dad, even though I dont talk to you much. Could you give him another 10 years, he doesnt even have to come back all the way, even 90% would be cool.

Dad survived and it took him 4 months to get out of the hospital and over a month in a coma in the beginning. They did a 5 way bypass and he was a changed man due to his stroke menatally but he was making progress foward. The took his leg below the knee due to poor circulation afterwards and now were in about 1 year after the event. At 1 year his personality was a little changed but we had him back minus a leg below the knee got to go out and enjoy fishing and spend some quaility time with him and holidays. he even kept his drivers liscence he came back so well. We really did get him back 90%


Dad was getting sick and weak about 9.5 years after his stroke and diagnosed with terminal cancer and given 6 months to live.

he died exactly 10 year to the day of his stroke.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the emotions involved with being an Atheist.

Myself, I have had a religious experience that left me stoked. I'm all pumped up. I'm closed minded.

An Atheist has found no evidence for God and has reached an anti-climatic realization that there is no God. I see no comparison of the level of emotion that is involved here.

I don't believe an Atheist is closed minded, but I'm not sure why the absence of proof equates that there is no God.

There is absence of proof of quantum physics too following that logic.

Honestly, lack of proof is just that, lack of proof. It does not prove or disprove anything.

The honest logician should have no choice but to be Agnostic.

I prefer to go with "evidence" rather than "proof", but here's how it works for me: the premise "God" creates a fair bit of expectation for evidence. When the evidence that the premise suggests should be there isn't there, then this is evidence that the premise is wrong.

Really, for me it comes down to a matter of knowledge: the theist says "God exists". While I agree that this may be coincidentally true or not, this is a separate matter from whether the theist has good reasons behind his claim. And if a claim isn't rationally supported, then there's no particular reason why I'm compelled to believe it or accept it.

So... if the claim is rational and supported, then there should be evidence to be had. And I think that aspects of the God-claim itself imply that there definitely is evidence to be had. This means that when evidence is lacking, this speaks against the validity of the claim.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ill share my personal story with you.

I was in the hospital after my dad had a major stroke and heart attack, we were told there was no hope and they asked where do you want the organs donated to if anywhere.

I looked up and prayed, said hey um you, I havnt asked for anything in a long long time id be greatful if you could help me out for my dad, even though I dont talk to you much. Could you give him another 10 years, he doesnt even have to come back all the way, even 90% would be cool.

Dad survived and it took him 4 months to get out of the hospital and over a month in a coma in the beginning. They did a 5 way bypass and he was a changed man due to his stroke menatally but he was making progress foward. The took his leg below the knee due to poor circulation afterwards and now were in about 1 year after the event. At 1 year his personality was a little changed but we had him back minus a leg below the knee got to go out and enjoy fishing and spend some quaility time with him and holidays. he even kept his drivers liscence he came back so well. We really did get him back 90%


Dad was getting sick and weak about 9.5 years after his stroke and diagnosed with terminal cancer and given 6 months to live.

he died exactly 10 year to the day of his stroke.

And I'll share a personal story with you:

My father was diagnosed with non-Hodgkins lymphoma. While I don't believe he was given a firm life expectancy, he was told that it was a very aggressive form of the cancer and that his prognosis was poor. My wife prayed for my father's recovery.

About six months after he was first diagnosed, when things got really bad, he was admitted to the hospital. Around this time, my wife arranged for an intention for him in Mass at her church: it's where the entire congregation prays for a person... usually either for someone critically ill or for the soul of a person who has recently died. Several hundred people earnestly prayed for my father's recovery.

His condition progressively worsened and he died within a few weeks.



Another personal story: like your father, my father-in-law also had a major stroke. He's since made nearly a full recovery. This outcome had nothing to do with prayer, but had everything to do with the fact that he managed to have his stroke at a banquet attended by several doctors who immediately recognized his symptoms, and with the fact that the nearby hospital he was rushed to had the medications on hand needed to prevent serious damage.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

Well there is a lot of crossover, and the terms involved are often polymorphic or used commonly used in a technically incorrect way... For example 'Weak' Atheism (which is the majority of atheists btw) is technically not true Atheism at all (which is Strong Atheism) it is actually Agnostic Atheism or possibly Apathetic.

Its a case where people generally do not know the difference between the different types of belief (including atheism which incorporates a set of beliefs) and non-belief positions.

There we go. Being Setian / Atheist is being strong atheist based on experience.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the emotions involved with being an Atheist.

Myself, I have had a religious experience that left me stoked. I'm all pumped up. I'm closed minded.

An Atheist has found no evidence for God and has reached an anti-climatic realization that there is no God. I see no comparison of the level of emotion that is involved here.

I've never been able to come up with a better description of how it feels to me to be an atheist than Penn Gillette's "This I Believe" essay:

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

There Is No God : NPR

I don't tend to go around focusing on the implications of an atheist worldview in my day-to-day life that much, but when I consider how my worldview would be different if I did believe in God, I have to say that I think - at least for me - a godless worldview has more room for hope and purpose in my life than a "godly" one would have.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

There we go. Being Setian / Atheist is being strong atheist based on experience.

LHP have always intrigued me for some of their other positions ... though to be truthful I do not know so much of the ToS in terms of how it stacks up to what I have heard of other LHP, especially in terms of their position (for this thread) on singular/plural metaphysical entity(ies) as forces that supersede physical laws; as some but not all LHP seem to think such entities exist.

 

[Caladan]

What does 'open minded' means? to some people beliefe in supernaturalism, and other acitivities or theologies which defy the natural course of events are not even an act of being open minded.
this is not how I categorise open mindedness personally.