Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[ppp]

The peace and security of mankind, its ultimate unity is not possible, unless and until the governments base their decisions on the councils given by God.

Because governments who base "their decisions on the councils given by God" have historically been the epitome of unity and stability and peace and happiness?

 

[CG Didymus]

I asked you what practical steps can be taken. I didn't ask for a link to a long essay.

What, specifically, does the Baha't religion propose doing that secular liberal democracies are not already doing or proposing.

Especially right now. It wouldn't take much for a major war, maybe even a nuclear war, to break out. Come on Baha'is, right now... What is the next step that must be taken?

Like I've mentioned already, I think it would be preferable to Baha'is if a war did break out. That way they could say that more prophecies were being fulfilled, and we'd be one step closer to surrendering ourselves to them... as our last and only hope.

 

[ppp]

Like I've mentioned already, I think it would be preferable to Baha'is if a war did break out. That way they could say that more prophecies were being fulfilled, and we'd be one step closer to surrendering ourselves to them... as our last and only hope.

Sad truth.
About three quarters of my extended family are JWs, and they do the same thing. They get so excited to see what they think are their end time prophecies re being fulfilled. Quoting left and right with gleeful fervor. It is ghoulish.

 

[KWED]

Oh dear. Why do I have to keep saying Oh dear to you guys. Lollll
Incorrect conclusion from what I said.
1. It means, they sincerely believed it to be true.
2. It means there could be good reasons they believed it so strongly that they died for it. (So, the Bab and Baha'u'llah had enough to convince them).

Therefore, it would be wise to look into that more carefully before making a conclusion.

You claimed that having followers prepared to die for you was evidence that they were messengers of god. I merely showed the flaw in your claim.
There is no need for "further investigation" because we know that having fanatical followers is most certainly not an indication of the rightness or trueness of that person's claims.

Then If He wasn't secretly preparing for His claim, why then there is no recorded history that He was reading or learning religious stuff or studying, prior to His claim?
How come in case of Joseph Smith, Ahmad Qadiani, or other people living at the time of Baha'u'llah, there are recorded history about what they have been studying, when and where, but in case of Baha'u'llah, despite there are many historic accounts on His life, no one ever mentioned He was reading and studying?
You must have a reasonable answer for this then..

Why would there be? There is nothing remarkable about a man from a privileged background reading books and listening to people talk. And remember that the "recorded history" is hagiographical and will obviously feed the desired narrative.
I really can't believe I have to explain this stuff to you.

Your conclusion is not reasonable, but rather it is what can be imagined to be most possible, because normally people have to learn things to know them.
You can claim reasonable when you have a reasonable answer to all valid questions.

I notice that you are still avoiding the issue of providing evidence for the magic you claim was at work here.
You accuse me of being unreasonable because I say that reading is a more likely method for a privileged aristocrat to find out about stuff than magic, but your only response is that the people who believed his claim to be an illiterate ignoramus believed his claims.

So, any chance of providing some evidence for the existence of magic?
Remember that your claim that god exists rests on Bahaullah being his messenger, yet your "evidence" for this rests on god existing so he can teach Bahaullah by magic.
Sorry, but that's circular logic 101. There is a massive hole in the centre of your belief.

 

[KWED]

The point is, that it is but a pure and simple waste of time for both of us and all who unfortunately choose to read the OP.

The answer to the OP is simple, it would be a simple No, as there is no God that foretells us of the future.

Is that a fair summary?

Regards Tony

I have completely forgotten what the OP was. Is it still relevant?

 

[KWED]

That is exactly what they are saying, that they won't believe in him until he proves himself to them.

They are saying IF a god existed in the way described by the person they are arguing with, then that god should be able to do certain things - and these things are exactly what they expect the God to do. So essentially they are telling God what God should do or else they are not going to believe God exists.

TBH, it was an act of the purest optimism to have thought you might have understood the point. Oh well.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i believe the Mormon claims are nonsense because they think they have evidence while the Mormons have none.
The Mormon believes the Baha'i aims are nonsense because they think they have evidence while the Baha'i have none.
I consider both to be nonsense because there is no evidence to support either of their extraordinary claims. Both rely of belief
Which is the more reasonable of those three positions?

An angel came to Joseph Smith and a maid of heaven came to Mírzá Ḥusayn-ʻAlí Núrí. And then there is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who claimed he was the Mahdi. For sure Baha'is believe he's a fake, but I wonder why? What is it about his teachings and his life and his claims that Baha'is believe are false? I'll bet it's very similar to why we question and doubt the claims of Baha'u'llah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If that was the meaning, then why not say that, because the way it is described is very specifically that Noah lived to be 950.

Because some of the stories were intentionally written by Prophets symbolically according to the will of God, so, they can last. So is with the miracles. It is not like in Bahai view, for example Jesus literally resurrected dead people, or He physically was resurrected. But scriptures were written to sound miraculous. One reason is, so, these beliefs forms and lasts among people. But that was for an older Ages, when humanity was at its childhood. Now, humanity has reached closer to Age of maturity, so, now, it was time, for the truth to be told to humanity. Now we know those stories were not literally true.

So basically you are claiming that messengers didn't really understand the message or how to convey it. So we should trust Bahaullah's writings to mean what you think they might mean.

No. The Messengers and Prophets knew very well. But they did not have permission to reveal them before, because they said things only as much as they were permitted by God.

So, for example, when Bahaullah claims that all humans spoke the same language until 5000 years ago, what did he actually mean, because we know he was wrong.

Please quote Baha'u'llah on this. We can look at what He said, and if it is wrong.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Great, animals live and die and are done with. Their lives aren't all that important to God. But people... they are special. They have a body and a brain that gets their eternal part, their soul, into all sorts of trouble for its existence in the next, spiritual, world.

The body has needs and the brain figures, "What the heck? Let me go do all sorts of things that religions say is bad. What's it going to hurt?" Then the brain and body dies and the soul goes on to the spirit world and gets put in a place far from God all because the body it was assigned to liked to lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, and kill. Or, did the soul have control over the brain and body? And some souls give in to the desires of the flesh?

God does not own anyone anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

TBH, it was an act of the purest optimism to have thought you might have understood the point. Oh well.

I understand the point only too well.... This is not my first rodeo with atheists, not by a long shot.
Atheists expect God to convince them that He exists because God is omnipotent so God can do anything.
What this means to atheists is that God should do everything I expect Him to do because He can do it.

The Omnipotent God does whatever He pleases and does nothing He does not choose to do. This is what atheists do not understand. Atheists think Omnipotent means that God can do anything, which really means God should be doing everything they expect Him to do. They do not understand what Omnipotence really means. It means that God can do anything but God only does what God chooses to do.

Below, Baha'u'llah explained what Omnipotence means in a nutshell.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

“No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So, they might not be accurate? But if Shoghi gave his opinion and wrote it down it was the infallible truth? Or only his interpretations were infallible but not his opinions?

If Shoghi Effendi wrote something, then it is officially his word to word.
The Letters that was written on behalf are not his word to word sayings. He explained them to his secretary, and then whatever the secretary understood wrote. The secretary could have used his own words, based on what he understood from Shoghi Effendi. So, it means there could be inaccuracies in the letters written on Shoghi Effendi. This is why they are called letter on his behalf, otherwise they would have been called his own letters. So, there is a difference.

 

[CG Didymus]

So how did the first messenger know that it was actually god rather than just a voce in their head?
as you point out, without previous messengers, that person could know it was god.

Baha'is really don't get into all the several "false" religions and "false" gods that have come and gone over time. Was there a messenger that brought the Egyptian, or Greek, Aztec religion? Maybe? Probably? But those messengers were liars and frauds? Even with a religion that Baha'is confirm, Hinduism, they don't ever talk about the many other "avatars" of the Lord and God Vishnu that came before Krishna.

So ordinary can't recognise and verify a god, but they can recognise and verify a messenger. Doesn't sound very likely, does it?

Yet, in some religions, lots of people get messages from God and communicate with their God. Many Pentecostal Christians have prophecies coming in all the time. Native Americans pray and fast until the Great Spirit sends them a message through a spirit animal.

 

[Trailblazer]

Usual cop-out.
This is your firm, absolute belief that you are completely convinced about.
Yet "I don't know" is all you have to one of the fundamental problems with it?
Come on!

The only answer I have is that suffering makes people grow stronger and people who have suffered, myself included, will testify to that.

Because god likes me more than the others. He has certainly blessed me with his bounteous grace and mercy.

That depends upon what you consider a blessing. The greatest blessing is to have knowledge of God since that is the purpose of this life.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

Look, god has his favourites, like all parents. Don't sweat it. Might not even be your fault.

If God has favorites then I am one of His favorites, since I recognized Baha'u'llah.

Only people who don't have much money say that, because they have aspirational dreams of how much they would need to have everything they want. Those who really are very wealthy understand just how easy it is to get through enormous sums pretty quickly.

I have about two million in money and assets and no debt. I won't be going through it because I have no desire to live high on the hog and I am content living simply. I would like to travel someday but that is not possible now because of my present life situation.

 

[CG Didymus]

Because governments who base "their decisions on the councils given by God" have historically been the epitome of unity and stability and peace and happiness?

To paraphrase the Bible... "Our God has spoken... We are to go kill everybody in the city. They are evil and worship false gods." "We have found you guilty of adultery. Our God condemns such behavior and has instructed as to stone you to death." "Why have you done work on God's holy day of rest? Did you really think you needed to go collect firewood? Sorry, but it is the Lord's command that we take you and stone you too."

And of course, those that past God's judgement on others were the epitome of fairness and were, themselves, upright and law abiding citizens.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sad truth.
About three quarters of my extended family are JWs, and they do the same thing. They get so excited to see what they think are their end time prophecies re being fulfilled. Quoting left and right with gleeful fervor. It is ghoulish.

Most any born-again Christian is the same way. These things, the tribulation and Armageddon, must happen. Then Jesus comes back. Baha'is just have it flipped around. The Christ comes, Baha'u'llah, and then the tribulations.

Oh, and my brother is a 7th Day Adventist. Same thing... the prophecies must be fulfilled.

 

[CG Didymus]

God does not own anyone anything.

"Own" or "owe"? We are "owed" an explanation and each religion gives one. And they are all very different.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You claimed that having followers prepared to die for you was evidence that they were messengers of god. I merely showed the flaw in your claim.
There is no need for "further investigation" because we know that having fanatical followers is most certainly not an indication of the rightness or trueness of that person's claims.

Now you are telling me what I said?
Lolll
No, you misunderstood me. Or perhaps you want to present my words in a way that you can refute me. You know this is a fallacy. Do you know what type of fallacy? It has a name.

Why would there be? There is nothing remarkable about a man from a privileged background reading books and listening to people talk.

Why not? Have you even read any history about Baha'u'llahs life? There are many things written on the life of Baha'u'llah which are historical. Even His birth certificate and passport is available. So, why they should include many things but not His religious education if He did have such an education or learnings?
Why Smith's history includes his education and learnings, but why this is absent from Baha'u'llah's?

And remember that the "recorded history" is hagiographical and will obviously feed the desired narrative.
I really can't believe I have to explain this stuff to you.

Not really. They also include the sayings of the opponents. It is not like I am asking you to look into what believers said about Him. It is fine if you can find a valid evidence from His opponents to show when and where Baha'u'llah was learning religious matters.

I notice that you are still avoiding the issue of providing evidence for the magic you claim was at work here.
You accuse me of being unreasonable because I say that reading is a more likely method for a privileged aristocrat to find out about stuff than magic, but your only response is that the people who believed his claim to be an illiterate ignoramus believed his claims.

So, any chance of providing some evidence for the existence of magic?
Remember that your claim that god exists rests on Bahaullah being his messenger, yet your "evidence" for this rests on god existing so he can teach Bahaullah by magic.
Sorry, but that's circular logic 101. There is a massive hole in the centre of your belief.

That is what we are discussing. Remember I said, the evidences sometimes are established through logical deductions.

The evidence already given. We said, Bahaullah from younger age, was in prison and exile as it is recorded in History. That is about 50 years in prison and exile. This period of prisonment and exile started at a very younger age. There are lots of history written by those who encountered Baha'u'llah and have written many things they have seen from Him. None of it mentions He had books, or was reading books. And the period before that, is mostly Baha'u'llahs childhood, which He as a child living in a noble family was given basic reading and writing, and poetry lessons. Nothing about religions studies. So, there was no time, that He could have been learning so much about details of religions. Remember He had the Quran, and Bible in mind. He could quote verses from mind.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"Own" or "owe"? We are "owed" an explanation and each religion gives one. And they are all very different.

Owe. The problem is my auto correction.

 

[CG Didymus]

The stories are symbolic, and one reason is, this way, these stories can last among generations for centuries or more. Symbolically stories last generations and centuries, as beliefs among people.
But now, that we came to a new age, humanity has a better capacity to understand. Thus, now in Revelation of Baha'u'llah the secrets and hidden meanings of symbolic stories in past scriptures revealed.
These periods of time have a meaning, other than their apparent meaning. 950 years is not literally, how long Noah lived, but is the duration that His covenant lasted. After that, Abraham brought a new covenant. So, 950 years life of Noah can be a metaphor to mean, life or length of His covenant.
Each Messenger, brought a new covenant prescribed for a period of time.

And this says it isn't his "dispensation"? And again, we have a symbolic story, but, supposedly, a historical character?

"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)​

 

[CG Didymus]

I see in your replies there is no interest in God, but to debate there is no God.

Is that a fair assumption?

Regards Tony

I think the point is that Baha'is, and people in most of the other religions, have committed themselves to believing in a God, a religion, and a prophet in which it is necessary to believe some things just because the prophet said so. As mentioned before, the Baha'i Faith supports science. And by using science, Baha'is believe we can avoid falling into "superstitious" beliefs. Except without objective proof and evidence... is God a superstitious belief?