Are Satan and Hell as bad they say?

[emiliano]

Ok, let have a crack at this:

Lucifer rebels against a God who would have most of mankind locked in an void for all eternity, simply because they would not sing hallelujahs and slavishly worship Him. The God of the Bible is a dictator far worse than the likes of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin.

As you may or may not know, we believe that Lucifer’s rebellion was defeated and that God gave humanity the role that Lucifer was unhappy with, that of worshiping God, Lucifer is said to have taken 1/3 of the sons of God (Angels) and went on to establish his own kingdom and he and his demons go around seducing, and scaring humans to his service, to worship him, now as part of the victory of the faithful Angels God executed a punishment and at the appointed time Lucifer will be thrown into the lake of fire together with his demons and all the humans that reject God and His kingdom, the human kind was given free will so as to enable them to choose God and His kingdom or Lucifer and his.

He is the ultimate totalitarian, trying to control what we eat (e.g. shrimp) and who we love (e.g homosexuals). Even though His followers claim that these rules are there to protect us, there is suspiciously little outcry against other dangerous activities, such as boxing and driving in a car.
Yet, most of humanity suffering for all eternity is not gloomy? Fundamentalist Christians claim to be so moral, but they are one of the largest groups with such a blatant disregard for their fellow man.

Well, I think that you have bone to pick with Christianity and God, what God is according to scripture is, is absolutely sovereign, He has mercy in who he wants, He elect who wants, He calls who he wants, why would a saved Christian feel gloomy about, we’ve chosen God and His kingdom? About the shrimps, the dietary laws and the 613 statutes and regulation, I don’t know how many times do we have to tell you, these were the statutes and regulation that the ancient Israelites had to live by in the land of Canaan, this is not the kingdom that we Christian seek, since there are those that freely choose to reject God and His kingdom, why should we care? What can we do?
What God isn’t, is a little permissive old man, He is absolutely sovereign, you seem to think that abstaining from an immoral life style makes Christians unhappy, that developing virtues rather than vices is a bad thing, that controlling lust is harmful, well ate bacon or shrimps regularly for years and you will have a coronary before turning 50 years of age, all that this means is that God care even for the little thing in our lives. Those that live contrary to God’s rules do more than not sing hallelujahs and slavishly worship Him, they present their bodies to the service of their flesh lusts. they use their body in an irrational unnatural way.
Your Churches must be full to the rafters, what is the membership numbers like? I mean everything goes, the rituals, the worship. How many Luciferians there are?

 

[emiliano]

How should I know? I don't know what experiencing God feels like. But I doubt it as I was never an adherent to any of the Abrahamic faiths.

Besides, I know a man who believes this world is screwed up, and still loves life and is far from depressed and gloomy.

Exactly you don’t know. And you are really separated from Him.

 

[emiliano]

Yes, I am very happy. I am thankful I am happy, yes. I never really thought about becoming seperated because for me God is everything. How can you seperate from that?

There are several ways, disobedience, rebellion, rejection. He may be in every thing but there are those that do not seek Him and His presence, so they are unaware of His presence, Christian also believe that God’s reveals Himself by the things created.
Psa 8:3 When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established;
Psa 8:4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?
Psa 8:5 For You have made him lack a little from God, and have crowned him with glory and honor.
Psa 8:6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet:
Psa 8:7 all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field;
Psa 8:8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas.
Psa 8:9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how excellent is Your name in all the earth!

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Lucifer wanted to be and equal with god and essentialy revolted against him. So if Lucifer was trying to be more like god then why would he have us burning for eternity in hell when he wanted to become our savior the same as god?

Your theology is a little,,,uh,,,off base. People go to the "Lake of Fire" not hell and the reason is for rejecting Christ not because of anything Satan does.

 

[Sunstone]

Neither Satan nor Hell exists ontologically. Hence, I don't think they can be as bad as they say.

 

[challupa]

There are several ways, disobedience, rebellion, rejection. He may be in every thing but there are those that do not seek Him and His presence, so they are unaware of His presence, Christian also believe that God’s reveals Himself by the things created.
Psa 8:3 When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established;
Psa 8:4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?
Psa 8:5 For You have made him lack a little from God, and have crowned him with glory and honor.
Psa 8:6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet:
Psa 8:7 all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field;
Psa 8:8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas.
Psa 8:9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how excellent is Your name in all the earth!

Well that's good. Seeing the beauty in creation is wonderful. It is truly beautiful.

 

[challupa]

Ok, let have a crack at this:

As you may or may not know, we believe that Lucifer’s rebellion was defeated and that God gave humanity the role that Lucifer was unhappy with, that of worshiping God, Lucifer is said to have taken 1/3 of the sons of God (Angels) and went on to establish his own kingdom and he and his demons go around seducing, and scaring humans to his service, to worship him, now as part of the victory of the faithful Angels God executed a punishment and at the appointed time Lucifer will be thrown into the lake of fire together with his demons and all the humans that reject God and His kingdom, the human kind was given free will so as to enable them to choose God and His kingdom or Lucifer and his.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been told many times on this forum that angels have no free will. How then did Lucifer and his angels actually rebel against God? This is something that I do not understand. Technically wouldn't rebellion of an entity with no free will be impossible?

 

[Darkness]

Well, I think that you have bone to pick with Christianity and God, what God is according to scripture is, is absolutely sovereign, He has mercy in who he wants, He elect who wants, He calls who he wants, why would a saved Christian feel gloomy about, we’ve chosen God and His kingdom?

We either choose God or He chooses us. Which is it: Arminianism or Calvinism? One is infinitesimally more humane than the other.

About the shrimps, the dietary laws and the 613 statutes and regulation, I don’t know how many times do we have to tell you, these were the statutes and regulation that the ancient Israelites had to live by in the land of Canaan

I never claimed Christians believe they cannot eat shrimp. Paul quickly abolished those rules when he realized he was not getting converts. However, the charge still stands. God still ordered ridiculous (and even barbaric) laws in the Old Testament.

since there are those that freely choose to reject God and His kingdom, why should we care? What can we do?

Apparently, you believe that a boy loving another boy or a girl loving another girl is worthy of eternal torture. I do not. My philosophy is primarily humanistic and yours is incredibly anti-humanistic. You believe that mankind is worthless as we are and that we need the Holy Ghost to transform us into something pure and beautiful. Heaven is right here and now. We do not need some Dystopian Heaven to complete us. Heaven is in the soft touch of a girl or the smile of a child.

The verdict: you do not care for the damned.

Your Churches must be full to the rafters, what is the membership numbers like? I mean everything goes, the rituals, the worship. How many Luciferians there are?

I have no church. And what makes you think that anything goes? Luciferianism is about protecting the the innocent, the weak, and the helpless. We actually give a damn about the six million Jews who, according to Christian (mainstream) belief, went from one torture chamber to another. I care for the poor girl who was brutally raped and died without belief. I care for the lost prostitute. You are wrong, my friend. Luciferianism is not the destruction of values, but the execution of strongly held altruistic values.

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Your theology is a little,,,uh,,,off base. People go to the "Lake of Fire" not hell and the reason is for rejecting Christ not because of anything Satan does.

Because, in Calvinism, we actually have a choice to accept Christ, without the Spirit.

 

[Riverwolf]

Exactly you don’t know. And you are really separated from Him.

So?

I don't really need God to tell me what to do. I prefer figuring things out for myself, and I've accepted the possible fate of eternal hellfire. I bear no grudge against God for that.

 

[Riverwolf]

I have no church. And what makes you think that anything goes? Luciferianism is about protecting the the innocent, the weak, and the helpless. We actually give a damn about the six million Jews who, according to Christian (mainstream) belief, went from one torture chamber to another. I care for the poor girl who was brutally raped and died without belief. I care for the lost prostitute. You are wrong, my friend. Luciferianism is not the destruction of values, but the execution of strongly held altruistic values.

Just like Jesus himself.

 

[Darkness]

Just like Jesus himself.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -- Mohandas Gandhi

"The last Christian died on the Cross." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[emiliano]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been told many times on this forum that angels have no free will. How then did Lucifer and his angels actually rebel against God? This is something that I do not understand. Technically wouldn't rebellion of an entity with no free will be impossible?

What this means to me is that the Angels were created first and were in fact created with free will just as humanity was created later on, the Angel and human have the ability to choose freely to do good and so is humanity, in the example of Jesus we find what will keeps us cling to God, and that is to do His will and not ours, simply because God is infinitely good. We are His precious creation, He Himself declares in His word, that we were created very good, but not infinitely good, thus we are subjected to corruptions and errors, so Jesus advice is divine Luk 22:42 saying, Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done. Can you see it? The faithful Angels opted for God’s will, not their own or Lucifer’s, they don’t have any other will but God’s and that is also what human must do to be part of God’s kingdom, which call been saved. Mat 6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
What should be the rational reaction at this findings? I like the apostle Paul’s take on it Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
God will is that we do what is good. That we freely choose to do good.

 

[challupa]

What this means to me is that the Angels were created first and were in fact created with free will just as humanity was created later on, the Angel and human have the ability to choose freely to do good and so is humanity, in the example of Jesus we find what will keeps us cling to God, and that is to do His will and not ours, simply because God is infinitely good. We are His precious creation, He Himself declares in His word, that we were created very good, but not infinitely good, thus we are subjected to corruptions and errors, so Jesus advice is divine Luk 22:42 saying, Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done. Can you see it? The faithful Angels opted for God’s will, not their own or Lucifer’s, they don’t have any other will but God’s and that is also what human must do to be part of God’s kingdom, which call been saved. Mat 6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
What should be the rational reaction at this findings? I like the apostle Paul’s take on it Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
God will is that we do what is good. That we freely choose to do good.

Well I tend to agree with you that angels must have free will, but it's just that many people don't believe they have free will so therefore they can't rebel. Taken that line of thought there can be no heavenly rebellion imo. Therefore I don't understand how these same people can believe in the devil or hell.

 

[emiliano]

These two doctrines are nothing but exaggeration of concepts in Christianity.

We either choose God or He chooses us. Which is it: Arminiani or Calvinism? One is infinitesimally more humane than the other.

Our hope must be to find which is true, never mind which makes us feel better.

I never claimed Christians believe they cannot eat shrimp. Paul quickly abolished those rules when he realized he was not getting converts.

That is possible only in the minds of those that s do not believe that Paul is an Apostle, that his Epistles are God’s breathed,

However, the charge still stands. God still ordered ridiculous (and even barbaric) laws in the Old Testament.

Which ones? Shrimps and Pork are very high in cholesterol but there are many people that consume excessive amounts of it and more often than they should to keep themselves in good health.

Apparently, you believe that a boy loving another boy or a girl loving another girl is worthy of eternal torture. I do not. My philosophy is primarily humanistic and yours is incredibly anti-humanistic.

That is your opinion, I have mine on this and in numerous other issues and have stated my position and reasons for my opposition to unnatural expressions of love, but I have done more than enough , please don’t bring the gay’s thing into this thread its invariably get ugly, you may be a better humanist than I am but I do not care much for humanism as my principal aim is spirituality. I seek the kingdom of God first and foremost. All the other thing will be added when I obtain what I seek.

You believe that mankind is worthless as we are and that we need the Holy Ghost to transform us into something pure and beautiful.

Correct, and that is because we believe Rev 21:27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. We are sinful thus if we are not changed we cannot enter the kingdom, because sin defiles.

Heaven is right here and now. We do not need some Dystopian Heaven to complete us.

You are talking for yourself, you don’t but billons of people disagree with you and that makes you special or delusional.

Heaven is in the soft touch of a girl or the smile of a child. The verdict: you do not care for the damned.

Now let look at this in an Arminian way, you can choose to come back to God and accept His will for your life and Bob’s your uncle, but Heaven is in the soft touch of a girl or the smile of a child? a boy loving another boy or a girl loving another girl ? I even prefer the Muslim virgins, So humanism=Luceferism?

I have no church. And what makes you think that anything goes? Luciferianism is about protecting the the innocent, the weak, and the helpless.

Because what you said, love and sex in any which way.

We actually give a damn about the six million Jews who, according to Christian (mainstream) belief, went from one torture chamber to another. I care for the poor girl who was brutally raped and died without belief. I care for the lost prostitute. You are wrong, my friend. Luciferianism is not the destruction of values, but the execution of strongly held altruistic values.

Well we do not agree in anything, but I must tell you this, don’t get personal with me, you may regret it, and really you’ll do better addressing your preachings to someone else.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well we do not agree in anything, but I must tell you this, don’t get personal with me, you may regret it, and really you’ll do better addressing your preachings to someone else.

He wasn't preaching; he was explaining his beliefs, just like you were.

 

[emiliano]

Well I tend to agree with you that angels must have free will, but it's just that many people don't believe they have free will so therefore they can't rebel. Taken that line of thought there can be no heavenly rebellion imo. Therefore I don't understand how these same people can believe in the devil or hell.

Well the confusion may raise out of the notion that they don't rebel because they can't, but in reality they don't do that just because they love God above all else.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
The Angel obey this commandment to the letter.

 

[emiliano]

He wasn't preaching; he was explaining his beliefs, just like you were.

Ah, he gave the impression that he was beating his own drums and showing the members of this forum how much better human being Luciferians are. I thought that he was attaching me personally for my stand on Homosexuality and Zionism, but surely you know better, don’t you?

 

[Riverwolf]

Ah, he gave the impression that he was beating his own drums and showing the members of this forum how much better human being Luciferians are. I thought that he was attaching me personally for my stand on Homosexuality and Zionism, but surely you know better, don’t you?

Well, on first impression, it looks like you were doing the same.

But I do know better, that both of you know that personal attacking is forbidden here, and both of you are not intentionally attacking each other but explaining your beliefs using words and phrases that sound like preaching.

 

[gnostic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been told many times on this forum that angels have no free will. How then did Lucifer and his angels actually rebel against God? This is something that I do not understand. Technically wouldn't rebellion of an entity with no free will be impossible?

Actually, those who rebelled, according to Islam, have free will, but they were not angels, but djinns. They believed that angels don't have free will, but the djinns do. And to them, Satan was not a former angel, but a djinn.

Christianity and Judaism don't have djinns.

 

[Azakel]

Actually, those who rebelled, according to Islam, have free will, but they were not angels, but djinns. They believed that angels don't have free will, but the djinns do. And to them, Satan was not a former angel, but a djinn.

Christianity and Judaism don't have djinns.

But also in Judaism Angels don't have free will ether. That seem to be a Christian only thing.

(But I'm sure you know that)