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Are you a god?

  • Thread starter angellous_evangellous
  • Start date

ch'ang

artist in training
Quantum physics can't introduce the possibility that you are a god.

Are you reading my posts? I specifically said that QM does not say i am a god, it just says that when unobserved particles don't have what we would call substance, but rather a probability field.

He didn't say that you are a god, either.

I never said that he said I was a god, I was just using his famous thesis "Cogito ergo sum" to prove that the only thing that you can be sure exits in is your own consciousness

If you don't know that your keyboard is real, there's no way that you can accept that thinking is proof that your mind exists

Yes there is, the keyboard is not me and so therefore must be interpreted by one of my senses for me to experience it, and since there is a possibility that do no even have senses and everything is just a product of my own consciousness I therefore can not trust my senses to prove what is real and what is not.

but you accept thinking (another sense interpreted by your brain)

What exactly is the sense that interprets thinking? Is it sight? Taste maybe?


Too much value in misinterpreting quantum physics

I can assure you that I have not done anything but paraphrase what nearly all leading molecular and sub-molecular physics professors believe to be true

too little common sense.

Common sense in matters of Metaphysics is more often then not wrong.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I'm not convinced that anything that you have said has any meaningful relationship to a responsible relfection on any interpretation of science or philosophy. That being said, I cannot responsibly interpret nor respond to your post other than to quote:

ch'ang said:
Common sense in matters of Metaphysics is more often then not wrong.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Do you?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
ch'ang said:

Are you reading my posts? I specifically said that QM does not say i am a god, it just says that when unobserved particles don't have what we would call substance, but rather a probability field.

I never said that he said I was a god, I was just using his famous thesis "Cogito ergo sum" to prove that the only thing that you can be sure exits in is your own consciousness

Yet you're the same person who wrote:
post #27 said:
I am most definitely the supreme being in the universe, now bear with me here this is all based on my own logic. Since I am the only thing that I can prove has consciousness (most people think that other humans have consciousness because they have similar traits but I myself nor anyone that I know of has ever confirmed this assumption ) therefore I am the only thing in the universe that can give form and substance to things, since things are only real in a practical sense if they can be observed, and I am a very practical person. Hence I am a god but not a supernatural being



post # 32 said:
Somewhat, for something to have substance it must be observed (trying to avoid a long winded explanation of quantum mechanics) and since I am the only thing that I can prove has consciousness in the universe then in effect when I observe something I am giving it substance.


So are leading physists claiming that you are god because you alone can observe things and give substance to the universe. Quantum physics introduces no such madness.
 

ch'ang

artist in training
I'm not convinced that anything that you have said has any meaningful relationship to a responsible relfection on any interpretation of science or philosophy.

I have merely combined Rene's thesis and one aspect of Quantum Mechanics and come to the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from their marriage

So are leading physists claiming that you are god because you alone can observe things and give substance to the universe. Quantum physics introduces no such madness.

Once agian all Quantum Mechanics has to say that is relvent to what I am talking about is that something does not have any substance unless observed nothing more nothingless, what I then did was apply this to the thesis "I think, therefore I am" and came to the conclusion that I am a god. The physists do not make the claim I am a god, I do, all they have done is provided me with evidence for this claim. I hope that clears this up a little.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Do you?

Yes, I'll admit that it was hardly eloquent but what can I say the boss man was breathing down my neck and I had to submit, anyway what I was trying to say was when you try to use common sense to try and solve metaphysical problems, you either can't or come out with an answer that makes no sense. Sorry about the mix up :) (btw, I make a keen distinction between common sense and logic and so do not use the two interchangeably like most people I know do.)


That being said, I cannot responsibly interpret nor respond to your post

I hope the first part of my post cleared this up as I would really like to continue this debate as it is quite interesting for me, and I hope it is for you also.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
ch'ang said:
I have merely combined Rene's thesis and one aspect of Quantum Mechanics and come to the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from their marriage

How is it the only logical conclusion? I don't see that any of your points relate to one another.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
ch'ang said:
Once agian all Quantum Mechanics has to say that is relvent to what I am talking about is that something does not have any substance unless observed nothing more nothingless, what I then did was apply this to the thesis "I think, therefore I am" and came to the conclusion that I am a god. The physists do not make the claim I am a god, I do, all they have done is provided me with evidence for this claim. I hope that clears this up a little.

One of the flaws in your theory is that you've cast yourself as the only observer, which no theory of quantum physics postulates. That's critical to your "logic," and it can't be defended. Quantum physics itself is a theory based on the observations of a number of physicists.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
One of the flaws in your theory is that you've cast yourself as the only observer, which no theory of quantum physics postulates. That's critical to your "logic," and it can't be defended. Quantum physics itself is a theory based on the observations of a number of physicists.

Quantum physics, if anything, can be used in an argument to describe God that is not you, as I believe Hawkings and others have done.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/text/public/dice.html
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
angellous_evangellous said:
I wonder how we could apply this to ethics.

One of the reasons that we pursue justice is the common understanding that we will all die, and we have an obligation to one another to have equitable access to resources that are conducive to life.

Although some of us may think that we are gods, we are forced to live the one life that we have as if we were mortal. Otherwise, our ethics will be utterly inhumane and destructive.
1) You cut out the part where I said:
God is immortal. The thing that is generally refered to as myself, this illusion of seperateness, will pass away like a wave in the ocean. In fact, it is passing with every given moment.
Of course the things that we refer to as "self" are mortal. To say otherwise would be denying the obvious.

2) The recognition that we are all God is directly applicable to ethics, and a much more compelling argument than mortality, imo. Just because I recognize that I'm going to die doesn't compel me to be fair if I can get away with taking advantage of someone. I don't see how that follows. So if we are both going to die, why should I share with you? You're going to die whether hungry or well-fed; no skin off my nose. I might as well take more for me while I'm around to enjoy it.

Otoh, if we recognize divinity in everyone, then we must respect everyone whether we are mortal or not. Would you treat God unjustly? If we recognize that we are all interconnected thru God, then we must respect all whether we are mortal or not. Would you treat yourself unjustly?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
lilithu said:
1) You cut out the part where I said:
God is immortal. The thing that is generally refered to as myself, this illusion of seperateness, will pass away like a wave in the ocean. In fact, it is passing with every given moment.
Of course the things that we refer to as "self" are mortal. To say otherwise would be denying the obvious.

2) The recognition that we are all God is directly applicable to ethics, and a much more compelling argument than mortality, imo. Just because I recognize that I'm going to die doesn't compel me to be fair if I can get away with taking advantage of someone. I don't see how that follows. So if we are both going to die, why should I share with you? You're going to die whether hungry or well-fed; no skin off my nose. I might as well take more for me while I'm around to enjoy it.

Otoh, if we recognize divinity in everyone, then we must respect everyone whether we are mortal or not. Would you treat God unjustly? If we recognize that we are all interconnected thru God, then we must respect all whether we are mortal or not. Would you treat yourself unjustly?

I appreciate the clarification. I think that it would be constructive to address this issue on another thread.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I've changed my tune:

Angellous clears voice and sings...

I'm a god and you are too
Fa-la-la-la-la ... La-la-la-la
Now we don't have to be so blue
Fa-la-la-la-la ... La-la-la-la
We create our own reality
Fa-la-la-la-la ... La-la-la-la
So Realize you're Deity
Fa-la-la-la-la ... La-la-la-la
 

ch'ang

artist in training
One of the flaws in your theory is that you've cast yourself as the only observer, which no theory of quantum physics postulates. That's critical to your "logic," and it can't be defended

I am the only observer that I can prove exists

4. Cogito Ergo Sum

4.1 The First Item of Knowledge

Famously, Descartes puts forward a very simple candidate as the “first item of knowledge.” The candidate is suggested by methodic doubt—by the very effort at thinking all my thoughts might be mistaken. Early in the Second Meditation, Descartes has his meditator observe:
I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I too do not exist? No: if I convinced myself of something then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who is deliberately and constantly deceiving me. In that case I too undoubtedly exist, if he is deceiving me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing so long as I think that I am something. So after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind. (Med. 2, AT 7:25)​
As the canonical formulation has it, I think therefore I am (Latin: cogito ergo sum; French: je pense, donc je suis)—a formulation which does not expressly arise in the Meditations.
Descartes regards the ‘cogito’ (as I shall refer to it) as the “first and most certain of all to occur to anyone who philosophizes in an orderly way” (Prin. 1:7, AT 8a:7). Testing the cogito with methodic doubt is supposed to help me appreciate its certainty. For the existence of my body is subject to doubts that the existence of my thinking resist. Indeed, the very attempt at thinking away my thinking is self-stultifying.
The cogito raises numerous philosophical questions and has generated an enormous literature. In summary fashion, I'll try to clarify a few central points.
First, a first-person formulation is essential to the certainty of the cogito. Third-person claims, such as “Icarus thinks,” or “Descartes thinks,” are not unshakably certain—not for me, at any rate; only the occurrence of my thought has a chance of resisting hyperbolic doubt. There are a number of passages in which Descartes refers to a third-person version of the cogito. But none of these occurs in the context of trying to establish categorically the existence of a particular thinker (as opposed merely to the conditional existence of whatever thinks).
Second, a present tense formulation is essential to the certainty of the cogito. It's no good to reason that “I existed since I recall I was thinking,” because methodic doubt calls into question whether I'm having veridical memories. (Maybe I'm merely dreaming that I was thinking, or maybe an evil genius is feeding me false memories.) Nor does it work to reason that “I shall continue to exist since I am now thinking.” As the meditator remarks, “it could be that were I totally to cease from thinking, I should totally cease to exist” (Med. 2, AT 7:27). The privileged certainty of the cogito is grounded in the “manifest contradiction” (cf. AT 7:36) of thinking away my occurrent thinking.
Third, the certainty of the cogito depends on being formulated in terms of my cogitatio—i.e., my thinking, or awareness/consciousness more generally. Any mode of my thinking is sufficient: doubt, understanding, affirmation, denial, volition, imagination, sensation, or the like (cf. Med. 2, AT 7:28). My non-thinking activities, on the other hand, are insufficient. For instance, it's no good to reason that “I exist since I am walking,” because methodic doubt calls into question the existence of my legs. (Maybe I'm just dreaming that I have legs.) A simple revision, such as “I exist since it seems I'm walking,” restores the anti-sceptical potency (cf. Replies 5, AT 7:352; Prin. 1:9).
Thanks to http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/#4, for the quote.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
It occured to me last night that I am a figment of your consciousness that is trying to convince yourself that you are not god.

It is always a good thing to listen to your conscious.

Descartes is merely mutilating Plato.

If materialism really is nothing, I suggest some simple experiments:

1) Stand on train tracks and observe the "reality" of a train coming toward you. If you're convinced that Descartes is correct, stay on the tracks and die with your pathetic, useless philosophy.

2) PM me all of your credit card numbers. :jam:

Because there is more than one observer, we can demonstrate convincingly that both you and the train exist, and the train is made of iron and you of flesh, you will most certianly die. We can demonstrate also that your credit cards exist, and I can have a great time shopping online, and you will have to pay for my guitars.

Sucker.
 

ch'ang

artist in training
Descartes is merely mutilating Plato.

It seems that you are no longer argueing with me but with one of the greatest philosophers of all time, .... good luck with that.

1) Stand on train tracks and observe the "reality" of a train coming toward you. If you're convinced that Descartes is correct, stay on the tracks and die with your pathetic, useless philosophy.

2) PM me all of your credit card numbers. :jam:

Because there is more than one observer, we can demonstrate convincingly that both you and the train exist, and the train is made of iron and you of flesh, you will most certianly die. We can demonstrate also that your credit cards exist, and I can have a great time shopping online, and you will have to pay for my guitars.

Sucker.

If your not going to debate anymore then neither will I.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
ch'ang said:
It seems that you are no longer argueing with me but with one of the greatest philosophers of all time, .... good luck with that.

I am merely using arguments that other philosophers used to eliminate Descartes from modern thought.

Anyway, I certainly think that your connection of Descartes to quantum physics to self-deification cannot qualify as logic.

If you think that I am abrasive, it is entirely your fault. Simply observe a more pleasant reality, and the problem will take care of itself.
 

ch'ang

artist in training
I am merely using arguments that other philosophers used to eliminate Descartes from modern thought.

Alright, well could you elaborate a little more then you previously did, or post a link to it whichever is more convenient.

Anyway, I certainly think that your connection of Descartes to quantum physics to self-deification cannot qualify as logic

Then were is the flaw or flaws that seem to be so apparent to you. I think you have a problem with the idea not the reasoning behind it but I could be wrong.

If you think that I am abrasive, it is entirely your fault

I guess I can't arugue with that, but I do think telling me to stand in front of a train and give you all me cerdit card numbers was either called for or, relavent to the arugement

Simply observe a more pleasant reality, and the problem will take care of itself

This I think supports my assumption that you have a problem with the idea and not the logic. Also what is so unpleasant about it?
 

Revelation

New Member
I am a god to the individual cells that compose my body. Whether the little critters worship me or not is a little uncertain.
:)
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
ch'ang said:
I guess I can't arugue with that, but I do think telling me to stand in front of a train and give you all me cerdit card numbers was either called for or, relavent to the arugement

It was argumentum absurdum, a perfectly valid method of arguing, and completely relevant to the argument. He's taking your argument to its utmost and demonstrating falsehoods on that end. If you'd like to parry, may I suggest you explain why he's overextending your argument?

This I think supports my assumption that you have a problem with the idea and not the logic. Also what is so unpleasant about it?

Pleasant =/= valid
 

Opethian

Active Member
I think ch'ang does have a point though. The fact that I can think and experience something means that I most definitely exist. There's no way of going around that. I exist, or I wouldn't know I exist. Yet, everything that I perceive in my consciousness, is just information being interpreted by my brains. Where is this information coming from? It could be that it is in fact coming from things I perceive through my human senses. Things that exist, as they are in fact being observed by me. Or it could be that there is some sort of matrix-like computer connected to my brains that is simply transferring the data to my brain, and the things I perceive are not real and do not exist. It could even be that my body as I perceive it does not exist, and that I simply am a machine, that was built to perceive itself as a human.

Btw, I am :

apolloquiz.jpg


and

zeusquiz.jpg
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
I haven't gone through every post, but I do not believe I am a god, for there is only one God and I'm not Him.
 
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