Are you sure you are an Atheist?

[McBell]

obviously you are a Star Trek fan.....
and you know the episodes of ET having god like powers?

there you go.....

Yes, they get into all manner of mischief because they are bored out of their mind.

 

[Demonslayer]

I do not get what you mean how fate and free will co-exist.

The idea is if there is such a thing as fate, or "God's plan" if you will...free will is only imaginary.

Example. If it was fate, or God's plan, that I should meet my wife and fall madly in love with her, than I had no choice but to meet my wife and fall madly in love with her.

I could not have chosen a different woman, or a life of celibacy, or to stay a bachelor. I may have felt like I had a choice, but if fate/God's plan is a real thing, the outcome was set and I couldn't really have changed it.

 

[Marsh]

obviously you are a Star Trek fan.....
and you know the episodes of ET having god like powers?

there you go.....

I had to chuckle at your comment. When I was a kid, I had a few dreams where, if I got up enough speed, I could actually take off and fly through the air on my bicycle for short distances, and that was before ET was released in the theatres. It was handy for getting over the neighbours fences.

 

[Jabar]

The idea is if there is such a thing as fate, or "God's plan" if you will...free will is only imaginary.

Example. If it was fate, or God's plan, that I should meet my wife and fall madly in love with her, than I had no choice but to meet my wife and fall madly in love with her.

I could not have chosen a different woman, or a life of celibacy, or to stay a bachelor. I may have felt like I had a choice, but if fate/God's plan is a real thing, the outcome was set and I couldn't really have changed it.

It is not exactly fate, you cause yourself to go to Hell.

It was not God's plan to burn you, you have received the message and he knows who failed and did not accept it and who did.

 

[Demonslayer]

It is not exactly fate, you cause yourself to go to Hell.

Than there is no fate, or God's plan. If it's totally up to me whether or not I go to hell, I am not fated to go there or to not go there.

 

[Ouroboros]

Ouroboros, all pantheists, or only some, accept the notion of life after death? If you do accept such a thing then what do you propose this particular afterlife is like?

My point wasn't that afterlife does exist. My question to Jabar was to clarify an apparent conflict. He said that we're not gods since we die, but he does believe in eternal life, which is a very godlike trait. My issue was we die and therefore not gods, but we live forever, but still not gods because we die... With an afterlife idea of the Christian/Muslim kind, death is only illusionary. It's just a transition. It's not final. It's a divine order because we supposedly have God's spirit within us and it separates us from the animals. Even the Bible claims "ye are gods!" (twice in fact, Psalms and Gospels, somewhere), also in Genesis, it says that by eating of the fruit, they "will be like gods." The idea of Jesus defeating death, so there's no death anymore. And so on...

The idea of apotheosis is most definitely there in the resurrection religions. It's humans being small gods and realizing their full potentials as those small gods for eternity.

When it comes to my personal view of afterlife, that's something we can discuss another time. I do suspect there are plenty of pantheists who believe in some kind of continuation of life afterwards, and who knows, I can't say with certainty what's possible or not.

 

[First Baseman]

Than there is no fate, or God's plan. If it's totally up to me whether or not I go to hell, I am not fated to go there or to not go there.

Your fate is in your own hands.

 

[Marsh]

It is not exactly fate, you cause yourself to go to Hell.

It was not God's plan to burn you, you have received the message and he knows who failed and did not accept it and who did.

Yet, God is saying do as I say or I have reserved a place for you to burn eternally. When ISIS burns people alive their actions are considered evil. I would consider it evil to burn alive even the worst offending member of ISIS. Why is it okay for God to burn people in perpetuity?

 

[Acim]

Ancient wisdom aside, arm chair philosophizing cannot often get us to the truth. There was a time Nefelie that your argument for the conservation of energy was one I also employed in support of an afterlife: the afterlife was as natural as thunderstorms. When we die, when anything dies, that energy is not lost, it simply dissipates into the surrounding environment. It is a nice thought that we somehow pass into a new existence, along with our beloved pets, but there is little evidence for it, and when I say "little" I am being generous. One of my philosophy profs admitted to believing in an afterlife, but he was also upfront with the class and said there was absolutely no evidence for it. He covered all the attempted experiments (up to that time), near death experiences, attempts to investigate stories of ghosts, etc., but concluded that we were left only with the hope of a life beyond the grave. By the way, this was a philosophy of religion course and he spent one lecture period on this topic.

I know how tempting it is to believe in life after death, but I have come to accept that it is simply wishful thinking. So, I think you have answered my question in part. You believe in survival after death, but do all pantheists believe this, and how much of the individual personality is it that you think survives?

How is the highlighted part nor arm chair philosophizing?

What does evidence for afterlife look like (to you)?

Thinking the material universe is real, is (also) wishful thinking.

If I am to be a god, as pantheists assert I am, then I want something to show for it; I wouldn't mind some god-like powers: perhaps the ability to recognize a winning lottery ticket before I make my purchase.

From what I've seen in your postings, if you suddenly had premonition (at crystal clear level) regarding lottery numbers, won the lottery, and then proceeded to be only concerned with material needs, whereby the power was seemingly lost, you'd possibly attribute the winning to happenstance.

To me, the maximal power you can possess as a God, is the ability to love without any conditions placed upon that. That might seem fairly plain jane when compared to the ability to do physical wonders in the material universe, but as one who's experienced this (exponentially increasing unconditional love), I would note that additional powers do come with it, which do seem wonderful on hindsight from a lesser understanding perspective, but are really seen as naturally occurring abilities from this position of all-loving. Powers such as ability to heal, premonition for what others need (before they ask) and ability to deliver, though not necessarily in way they were perhaps originally thinking. More in the way of teaching a brother to fish rather than giving them a fish, where the man was asking to be given a fish.

For me, this understanding of self as God is plausibly understood as simply (and intellectually) understanding we have lower needs (or desires) and higher needs. Currently, I think many would agree that addressing hunger is a lower need, while say opportunity to engage in scientific research is a higher need (or desire). Whatever one wishes to determine for their self with regards to higher/lower needs, helps I think in attuning Self with God. Thing is from the divine perspective, it's just need for assistance with no order of difficulty perceived in delivering fulfillment. Nor any desire to wait for bureaucratic red tape to be cut through before helping action occurs. Given the supreme recognition in Self, there's no need to convince another of the plan and possible alternatives for the process to get underway. Helps, I think, to realize that as you are not Creator of your Self, it can be immensely helpful to be open to help yourself, thus not getting all arrogant once you do have acute realization around Self as God. To understand it is as blessed to receive as it is to give.

In shared reality, all this stuff is literally happening all the time. Lower self and its ability to demand pity and belief in fear, suffering and guilt can shield one's own vision from what is occurring not just often, but literally all the time.

It's fine and normal to believe heaven is what occurs in the afterlife. Wake up and realize heaven is now, here.

 

[viole]

Your fate is in your own hands.

Darn, I need to restart believing in Santa.

I hate it to spend a Christmas without presents from the old man.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Thief]

Yet, God is saying do as I say or I have reserved a place for you to burn eternally. When ISIS burns people alive their actions are considered evil. I would consider it evil to burn alive even the worst offending member of ISIS. Why is it okay for God to burn people in perpetuity?

in all fairness....you have a point.....
let me ease the contrast just a bit....

I believe we end up alongside others like ourselves.
how else to be happy?
how else to be fair?

I don't think God is trying to be vengeful.....even though scripture gives that trait to Him
it's just a matter of keeping peace in heaven.....
and the rest can deal with each other....without His assistance

this life may well be a trial event.....to see where you end up

 

[Demonslayer]

Your fate is in your own hands.

LOL! Than it's not fate. Fate is fate, when someone says "it was fate" that X occurred, it means it was destined to be no matter what.

If my future is in my own hands, fate is a false idea.

 

[Acim]

LOL! Than it's not fate. Fate is fate, when someone says "it was fate" that X occurred, it means it was destined to be no matter what.

If my future is in my own hands, fate is a false idea.

In our night dreams, would you say the future of events in the dream is in the hands of the dreamer, or is outside of the dreamer's hands and pre-determined (by some other force)?

 

[Agondonter]

What the English speaking world does to our language is deplorable. The meanings of words become less precise with time rather than more precise. The word "atheist" belongs in that evergrowing list of words that becomes less and less specific with use; along with the words Theory, Pedophile, God, Fetish and many more.

The most basic definition of "atheist" is "one who withholds belief in gods". This includes those, like myself, who will state emphatically, "There is no God"; but also includes many who will state, "I'm not sure if there is a God or not" and those who would state "I'll believe in God of objectively proven to exist; but as yet, there is no objective evidence to confirm God's existence, so until there exists that objective evidence, I will remain skeptical". All of these share one common thread: withholding of the belief in a deity; and at different extremes.

My belief is "there is no God". I accept this statement as a belief-based statement; as the word "god" is open for interpretation and lacks a unified definitions and a unified determination of the characteristics of what a "god" is and is not; and also, looking at this question from a purely objective standpoint, mankind is as powerless to objectively disprove god as they are powerless to objectively prove god.

So, based on my belief, your question:



my answer:

I believe there is no God. There is no spirit. There is no soul. There is no hereafter. There is no divinity. There are no "spiritual forces" interacting with the physical realm or life itself. So, I hold there is a non-existence of God; and this includes all fabrications and various definitions of "god".

I admire your honesty and straightforwardness. I gave your post a "like" even though I'm a theist (though a highly unorthodox one).

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Do you have faith that the sun will come up every morning?

These kinds of questions are becoming an irritant to me do the the asker constantly wishing to convolute "faith" in unseen, supernatural forces ("faith" is evidence of things not seen, according to the Bible) with "faith" or "belief" etc. based on repeated, testable, measurable results and repeated patterns of our environment.

To be specific: No, I do not have "faith" or "belief" that the sun will "come up" in the morning. The sun will not "come up" in the morning. The sun will "appear" to come up in the morning. This is due to the rotation of the earth, following predictable laws of physics; repeatable, testable, calculable patterns.

This is far different than "faith" that a talisman will protect me from demons, or "faith" that I will live forever in a state of nirvana, or that Jesus has freed me from my sins so I can go to heaven. Cramming this word "faith" into everything then stipulating that us atheists have the same kind of "faith" the theist does is woefully ridiculous.

faith
fāTH/
noun
noun: faith

1. 1.
   complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
   "this restores one's faith in politicians"
   synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction;More
   optimism, hopefulness, hope
   "he justified his boss's faith in him"
   antonyms: mistrust
2. 2.
   strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
   synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine
   "she gave her life for her faith"
   • a system of religious belief.
     plural noun: faiths
     "the Christian faith"
   • a strongly held belief or theory.
     "the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe"

I have "complete confidence" that the earth will continue to spin on its axis for many millenia to come (though it will eventually cease to spin due to etropy); but I do not have "a strong belief in God or the doctrines of religion or science based on apprehensions rather than proof".

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

I admire your honesty and straightforwardness. I gave your post a "like" even though I'm a theist (though a highly unorthodox one).

Thank you. If my responses tend to be on the strident side, I hope you can overlook that and mark it up to frustration rather than a statement on my character.

 

[Nefelie]

Ancient wisdom aside, arm chair philosophizing cannot often get us to the truth.

I don’t know what that means...

There was a time Nefelie that your argument for the conservation of energy was one I also employed in support of an afterlife: the afterlife was as natural as thunderstorms. When we die, when anything dies, that energy is not lost, it simply dissipates into the surrounding environment. It is a nice thought that we somehow pass into a new existence, along with our beloved pets, but there is little evidence for it, and when I say "little" I am being generous.

I think you are thinking of the “after life” as something where your conscious will go on -you will maintain your memories, feelings, and so on. I never said anything like that. That’s your assumption

If I am to be a god, as pantheists assert I am, then I want something to show for it; I wouldn't mind some god-like powers: perhaps the ability to recognize a winning lottery ticket before I make my purchase.

*laughs* Yes, I get it

But, consider this: you are not the only god. I am too. So is Ouroboros and Acim and the kid across the street and so on. Therefore, your will and wishes interact with the rest of us. So if we all want the same thing… may the stronger will win

It is still like forms of energy and power. You’re an astronomer, right? So, for example, lets assume we have two planets and a comet passing between them. On which of the two planets is it more likely to crash? Is it not about size, gravity, position, speed and so on?

~~~

I do suspect there are plenty of pantheists who believe in some kind of continuation of life afterwards, and who knows, I can't say with certainty what's possible or not.

Maybe everything is possible and correct

.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I do not get what you mean how fate and free will co-exist.

Hmmm...okay.

Fate or destiny are concepts around us being pre-destined for an outcome. Muhammad was fated to be the final, successful prophet, based on what you've told me here. Allah was able to denote him the final prophet since he knew this, as well as knowing how the world would respond to his message.

However, free will means we, as individuals, can make choices. These can be harmful, or against Allah's will, like my atheism, but we're free to make them.

So once given his message by Allah (or Gabriel if we're to split hairs) Muhammad could have decided not to transmit it. People could have chosen not to listen.

But he was fated to be successful.

Which appears contrary to free will, conceptually.

 

[Agondonter]

Thank you. If my responses tend to be on the strident side, I hope you can overlook that and mark it up to frustration rather than a statement on my character.

LOL! Even though I come from the opposite side of the spectrum, I know exactly what you mean.

 

[Jabar]

Hmmm...okay.

Fate or destiny are concepts around us being pre-destined for an outcome. Muhammad was fated to be the final, successful prophet, based on what you've told me here. Allah was able to denote him the final prophet since he knew this, as well as knowing how the world would respond to his message.

However, free will means we, as individuals, can make choices. These can be harmful, or against Allah's will, like my atheism, but we're free to make them.

So once given his message by Allah (or Gabriel if we're to split hairs) Muhammad could have decided not to transmit it. People could have chosen not to listen.

But he was fated to be successful.

Which appears contrary to free will, conceptually.

It does not, Allah is All-Merciful and Forgiving.

He let people have there own free will but still receive the message.

:0